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By 87bluebird
#143934
Tonight on my way home from work I am gonna stop at Walmart and buy 2 of the kid trax four wheeler power wheels in mossy oak camo for my daughter as a Christmas present. She is 18 months old and does good driving the same kind of Atv but pink at her grandmas. Just needs to figure out steering. While she enjoys the one at her grandmas there's some things I don't like about it 1wd and 6v can't get over the smallest bump or rock or grass. We live on a dead end dirt road so that would make it about useless in our yard/driveway and there isn't much room for her to drive in the house. First thing I want to do is 2wd. Which is why I was planning to buy 2 of the same Atv. These Atvs are 60 bucks, a 2nd gear box motor and hub is about 30 plus shipping and only can find pink. This way gives me extra parts incase it ever gets damaged and a second battery and charger which I will need for the second modification I want to do 12v 550 motors variable speed throttle and scooter controller. I know overkill for an 18 month old but the Atv thumb type throttle from tnc has a set screw so I can limit her speed till she is ready for full throttle. And then limit it again when it gets handed down to her little brother next year. Plus she is getting a helmet. I don't have a lot of experience with this kind of electronic stuff some but not enough. And there's not a lot of info on modifying the toddler quads. So I have a few questions.

1. Will the 550 motors fit in place of the stock motors with no issues? I read on a thread the stock motors are 380 and the 550s will fit but can't find that now.

Edit:] no chances of a 550 fitting

2. Is the stock 6 volt wiring strong enough for the larger motors and 12v? If not what size wire should I replace it with?

Edit:] if that's only mod probably. With everything else I am doing not much original wire will be used so doing it all in 12 gauge. Except couple low voltage things

3. Do these kid trax atvs have automatic braking like bigger power wheels? If so how do I wire that into the scooter controller or add it in if they don't?

Edit:] so slow no brakes stock. Automatic breaks and scooter controller would be possible if you could find a throttle with a switch that's closed when throttle is not being pushed. I couldn't find one so separate brakes using the original go button from second quad on left side of handle bars

4. Will I have to add any relays or fuses to do all this?

Edit:] for 12 volts need 30 amp fuse or circuit breaker best spot between batteries (if using 2 6volt in series) or on positive if using one 12 volt battery. If one speed no reverse no breaks you don't need any relays. But need dpdt (dual pole dual throw) relays if you add that stuff. One relay for brakes, one relay for reverse and one for hi/lo, depending what features you add. Brakes need 1.0 ohm 10w resistors wired in parallel. (I am using 3 to start) more resistors for softer breaks less for harsher brakes. I do not know how much current the power signal light connector can handle plus for easier wiring. I am connecting that connection to trigger a spst (single pole single throw relay) so everything that needs power when on gets it from battery through a power distribution screw. But will be off when controller is off.

5. Are there any wiring diagrams for these atvs so I can figure out what wires to connect where?

Edit:] original wiring is only 3 wires but almost none of it is used for this project. After staring at several other diagrams for controllers being wired into broken, shifters being wired in and, other wiring diagrams I have come up with a wiring diagram I am fairly sure will work. Will share that and it's success or failure when I get to that part of the project.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
This is the quad I am buying her.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Kid-Trax-6V-Mossy-Oak-Quad-Ride-On/51902524?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222228047327719&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=m&wl3=90346578769&wl4=aud-261800281900:pla-256738309593&wl5=9005631&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=online&wl12=51902524&wl13=&veh=sem

This is the scooter controller from electricscooterparts.com I plan to use.
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/speedcontrollers12volt.html

This is the throttle from tnc that I want to use
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_81&product_id=354
Edit:] that's a gas motor throttle oops the one I ordered is thumb throttle THR-40 from electric scooter parts
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/throttlesstandard.html

And lastly the motors
https://www.amazon.com/Titan-21-Turn-Fan-Cooled-Volts-Motor/dp/B000BONYBC

Edit:] 550 motors don't fit need 380 motors will edit again when I decide what ones I will get.

Will this stuff work together how I want it to? Am I missing anything? Or am I just crazy for considering spending almost 250 on a 60 dollar toddler toy that's for an 18 month old girl?

Edit:] 250 is a sadly low estimate for this project. alot of the stuff I am adding she won't understand how to use for a while and somethings are just overkill for a lil quad. but it teaches me how to build future projects and increases safety and hopefully longevity of this project I am hoping it can keep being passed down to the younger kids for a few years.
Last edited by 87bluebird on Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#143938
These things are tiny and the wiring is pretty simple not much to it. So that makes it easier. To make it 2wd there will be some trimming of the left side of the body to make room for the gear box and a hole for the motor. Will have to rivet or epoxy some plastic or tin to fill the hole made by trimming to make room for the gear box. I will probably cut the battery box out of the second body then cut a hole in the main body behind its battery in front of the motors and epoxy or rivet the 2nd battery box in the hole. The controller when I get it will be mounted to the back of the inside above the axle. The throttle is gonna be the biggest challenge. Will probably need completely different handle bars still trying to figure that out.

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Ignore the mess in the background I have them in the back bedroom we use to store everything which is always a mess. This last picture you can kinda see how I got to trim it to make room for the left side gear box.
By Rob222
#143940
Electronic Scooter Parts does carry a single 12v ESC for $25. ESCs rated below 24v are generally not needed for ride-on toys. When an esc is added it's a good idea to add a brake relay downstream in the wiring since the controller can fail full on (even if you have the throttle limited mechanically or with an in-line resistor). Just something else to think about with an ESC, adding a brake. In the Fisher-Price 6V Little Quad that we have the single gearbox drives both rear wheels by the axle. Traction is not a problem but they are slow at 6v. We bumped ours to 12v for a summer and the gearbox held up fine without an esc. The kid Trax one looks a lot like it but only drives one wheel per gearbox ? Yes, the gearboxes usually rock in all the ride-on's to soften the hit on the gears on takeoff. I hate to discourage any project but yes you may be going a little overboard for an 18month.
#143941
Yea the gear box only drives one wheel that's why I want to add a gear box to drive the other wheel.the axle has a tab on it the rests on the body and a piece in the wheels allow them to spin free on it. The axle never turns And a brake relay is something that I want to do but I do not know how to wire that in yet. Do the controllers fail full on often?
It don't discourage me lol I go overkill on most projects
2wd adding another gear box is not difficult but it's definitely not easy. There's a couple of nubs on the axle on the non driven side that keep the wheel spaced out those will need to be ground off. And I have to cut some of the body to make room for the gear box. Basically plan to make it match the side that already has a gearbox.

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By Rob222
#143944
I don't think the thumb throttle that you have posted is a 3-wire Hall-effect throttle. That just looks like a mechanical throttle for a cable driven setup. The ESC needs a 3-wire Hall-effect throttle.

The following couple of YouTube videos are a great overview on everything needed for an ESC upgrade and why:
"Power Wheels ESC Explanation - Purpose, Demo, Parts, Installation"
"Power Wheels ESC Full Installation - 37 Min"

There are no specific upgrade procedures for a toddler sized ride-on because there is no difference in the modifications needed. Also a 12v Esc upgrade is going to be the same process as a 24v ESC upgrade (except for the batteries of course and the relay ratings).

You are also going to have to start thinking about the pinions for those motors. I didn't see that you ordered any. Is the plan to use the ones from your stock motors ? That is not the easiest thing to do most times.
#143945
Next Friday I will order a shifter for a power wheels baja extreme
https://www.powerwheelsservicecenter.com/power-wheels/atvs/shifter-for-baja-extreme/
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And I will get the relays and resistors I need and wire it based on this wiring diagram from this thread.
http://forum.modifiedpowerwheels.com/viewtopic.php?t=2819
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I want automatic brakes a separate pedal or button would confuse her. If I put a momentary switch on the throttle so when the throttle is off it activates that switch would that work for the brakes?

Edit:] that might work or find throttle that has one built in. I couldn't come up with a good idea of how to do it or find one that already has it so doing a a separate brake button.

The connector in that diagram labeled pilot light that connects the controller to the shifter is that the same thing as the connector labeled power light on the 12v controller from electronic scooter parts?

Edit:] yes

Also that diagram is for 24v will I need different size resistors or relays for 12 volt?

Edit:] the 100ohm resistors are there to drop the 24v down to 12v for the relay coils so they are not not needed for 12v. If not removed they will drop voltage, on a 12 volt system, to low to trigger the coils. Brake resistors should be fine just add extra resistors for softer breaks or use less resistors for harder brakes. The same relays can be used for 12v or 24v. The shifter wiring on this diagram will not work in 12 volt. In this diagram if in reverse the number 2 and number 3 relays coils are ran in series. If you run the coils in series it cuts the voltage in half. Which is why there is no 100ohm resistor for reverse. (electric motors do the same thing when ran in series which is how low range works.) of I tried wiring the shifter and relay coils like this on a 12v system the coils on the number 2 and number 3 relays would only get 6v and would not trigger them. So instead of looking reverse with you would be in high forward which could easily cause accidents or injuries. To get low reverse and low forward and high forward the only wires you have to change on this diagram are pilot light connector wires, shifter wires, relay 2 coil wires and relay 3 coil wires. All the rest of the relay and controller wires stay the same. The pilot light ground needs to go to the number 2 and number 3 relays coils (it don't matter which side). Pilot light connector positive goes to hi/lo switch. you need 2 terminals on that switch that are closed (connected) in low but open (not connected in high). Other terminal connects to relay 3s other coil terminal. Then another positive goes from relay 3s positive coil side up to the reverse switch. On the reverse switch you need 2 terminals that are closed (connected) when in reverse but open (not connected) when in forward. The second terminal goes to the relay 2 coil positive. That's it, rest is same as this diagram. Then add wiring for whatever else you add to the project.
Last edited by 87bluebird on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
#143946
Rob222 wrote:I don't think the thumb throttle that you have posted is a 3-wire Hall-effect throttle. That just looks like a mechanical throttle for a cable driven setup. The ESC needs a 3-wire Hall-effect throttle.

The following couple of YouTube videos are a great overview on everything needed for an ESC upgrade and why:
"Power Wheels ESC Explanation - Purpose, Demo, Parts, Installation"
"Power Wheels ESC Full Installation - 37 Min"

There are no specific upgrade procedures for a toddler sized ride-on because there is no difference in the modifications needed. Also a 12v Esc upgrade is going to be the same process as a 24v ESC upgrade (except for the batteries of course and the relay ratings).

You are also going to have to start thinking about the pinions for those motors. I didn't see that you ordered any. Is the plan to use the ones from your stock motors ? That is not the easiest thing to do most times.


You are correct that is the wrong throttle.
This is the correct one.
http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_79_83&product_id=76
I was going to try to reuse old pinion. I have successfully removed them from electric motors before. If not I will get new ones. And I will watch those after I get home from work.
By Rob222
#143947
Using that diagram, the only reason you would need a shifter is to add fwd/rev to the quad. That means another relay and more wiring in a tiny quad. That diagram also uses the brake wiring on the controller. I prefer to wire the brake relay right off the brake switch because some of the early ESCs had problems with the brake circuits not working. You would need a 5-wire thumb throttle with a built-in switch for auto brakes , if you want them.

The diagram shows the shifter selecting between L/H/R. There is no reason to have a selection for L/H (I gather this is a fast/slow selection) with an ESC. It is much easier to limit the throttle mechanically or with a potentiometer than with relay (and lots more wiring).

In that diagram, the 100ohm resistors on the relay coils are there because the relay coils are rated for 12v but the controller is putting out 24v. No need for them if the relays are rated for the voltage. The three 1ohm resistors on the brake relay are the "auto stop braking" resistors. These get adjusted as needed for a softer or more aggressive "auto stop".

Check out the 3rd diagram down, "Simplest (sp?) way to add an ESC to most any BPRO. Stock wiring retained, one SPDT relay for brake".
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17288

For fun, the following topic has a video of an upgraded 6v mini-quad. The last post from the dad starts with "The police came to my house to see what the neighbors were talking about."
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19798&p=139079#p139079
#143950
I thought the brake wire on the controller was to activate brake lights or does it actually control brakes?
Reverse would be nice when she can figure it out.
Do you know of any 5 wire thumb throttles like that tried googling but didn't find anything.
What is a potentiometer?
That quad is crazy
#143951
Got the body cut to clear the second gearbox. Still have to grind the nubs off the axle and epoxy plastic back into the hole I made making room for the gearbox. The motors brackets only have about an eighth inch between them. The wires had to be bent to the sides. The screws and motor on the parts quad are rusty looks like it was sitting under water good thing its only parts and i have new motors coming
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#143953
The kids were still sleeping when I got up this morning so I did some more work on this project. I started with getting the nubs ground off the axle. The L bracket that holds the axle to the bottom of the body on the rusty quad is actually tack welded to the axle so I got to break the tacks or cut them so I can use that bracket. Then I temporarily assembled as 2wd. Motors have more room now that it's bolted together. Next I pulled it back apart and stripped the rusty quad completely apart. I cut the battery box out of the rusty quads body. Then cut a hole in the one I am building for that battery box which I pushed into that hole and assembled everything again to see how it all fits together I still got to pull it apart and epoxy it back together and paint the axle shaft. But the 2wd and 12 volt parts of this project are almost done.
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#143954
I can't find a throttle with a built-in switch for braking so I think what I will do is take the momentary switch which is the go button on the second quad and put it on the left side of the handlebars to use as a stop button. After she has pushed it a couple of times and it stops her she will hopefully figure it out lol at 3 or 4 mph she ain't gonna get hurt much if she doesn't learn to stop yet. So that should be alright. And the original go button on the right side will eventually be wired to a horn. She will have to let of the throttle to push it but that's OK because then she won't honk the horn alot and annoy me lol
Will these relays from Amazon work?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008MU0MRQ/ref=pd_aw_sbs_60_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=W666FT3S5V2V610PQHS0
#143955
Rob222 wrote:
In that diagram, the 100ohm resistors on the relay coils are there because the relay coils are rated for 12v but the controller is putting out 24v. No need for them if the relays are rated for the voltage. The three 1ohm resistors on the brake relay are the "auto stop braking" resistors. These get adjusted as needed for a softer or more aggressive "auto stop".


So the 100ohm resistors can be completely left out for this project?
And to adjust the 1 ohm resistors for harder or softer brakes I would add or subtract more or less 1 ohm resistors? 4 1ohm resistors for softer brakes or 2 1ohm resistors for harder brakes?
Would these resistors work?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01GO4S18S/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_328_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=PA9YD2KDBQVR4TB24ZE5
By Rob222
#143957
A potentiometer is a variable resistor. It can be placed in series with the Hall-effect throttle and used to limit the top speed.

Yes the 100ohm resistors can be completely left out.

Yes to adjust the 1 ohm resistors for harder or softer brakes you would add or subtract more or less 1 ohm resistors.
"4 1ohm resistors for softer brakes or 2 1ohm resistors for harder brakes?" No this is backwards.
The more resistors you add in parallel, the lower the overall resistance is, and the harder the braking is.
The fewer resistors you add in parallel, the higher the overall resistance is, and the softer the breaking is.
Yes, the 10w 1ohm resistors are good.

The relays you're looking at on amazon will work just fine.
Any 20a or 30a circuit breaker would work. That's a very fancy one that you're looking at but looks ok.

With light weight, two gearboxes, new motors, running on 12v that quad will easily go faster than 3-4 mph.
#143958
Would this potentiometer work?
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00E0IZCS8/ref=mp_s_a_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1480916255&sr=8-6&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Potentiometer+5k&dpPl=1&dpID=413vAM5GicL&ref=plSrch
Looking at wiring diagrams on the thread you linked to yesterday I am assuming Master throttle control is a potentiometer? If so to wire it in it taps into the positive wire for the throttle and t's into the ground? How do I know which wire goes were on the potentiometer?

How fast do you think it will be able to go?
By Rob222
#143962
The throttle signal input to the ECS is a 0-5 volt reference signal from the Hall effect pedal. The ESC translates the 0-5v reference signal into a 0-12v output (high current) to the motors.
The pot just keeps the 0-5 volt reference signal from ever reaching 5v (full speed). Other posters here have recommended a "speed limiting" 2k ohm pot wired into the throttle signal (I know this was for a 24v ESC upgrade but it does not matter since all controllers that use a hall-effect speed input use a 0-5v reference signal).

The pot has a center tap. If you get that wired correctly the other two leads really don't matter how you wire them (the pot will just have to be spun in the opposite direction if you guess wrong - or just swap the other 2 leads). Or test the pot with an ohm meter before connecting it up.

The quad will be faster than is safe for an 18month (stock 2-speed full-size 12v rides are listed at 2.5 and 5mph). I'm not even sure a two year old will be able to modulate a thumb throttle and I know they don't understand brakes.
#143963
She can work a thumb throttle i have shown her how to push throttle on my 4wheeler (engine off) she was able to push that. once I show her on the lil quad and she sees it makes her move she will get it. It took 2 seconds for her to figure out the stock go button on the lil quad at her grandmas. Yea brakes will take some time to teach but I will limit her speed till she understands brakes and steering.
#143966
The body is Epoxyed but the plastic weld epoxy I used was runny and didn't turn out good so I will get a better epoxy and fill it in better. I also painted the axle and charged the batteries last night. I reassembled it this morning and temporarily wired it to test it out batteries wired I series for 12 volt and motors wired in series only goes about 2 or 3 mph and can drive over most things in its way that's without weight of a rider. I switched it so the motors were wired in parallel and yea fast at least 4 or 5 mph I couldn't keep up with it lol and nothing will stop it it will run over anything.

So we succeeded in giving it the power and traction it needs. Still need to install batteries hold downs. Will just use stock ones second battery will get it on the side. Then wait for parts to arrive. The controller is 3 inch long the crease in the back of the quad is 3.45 inches across. The controller front to back is 1.5 inches there is 2.5 inches between the gear box plastic around motors and the back of the quad. And back of quad is 6 inches deep controller is 2.375 inches top to bottom. So that's a good spot to put it. I plan to mount the relays beneath it. Wiring for throttle brakes etc will run under body between side plastic and battery tray. The potentiometer will probably be put above one of the motors.
Will having everything crammed into such a small area cause it to get hot? If so should I add a cooling fan? Or will it be fine?

Also the lil quad at her grandmas is prone to do wheelies if the kids don't sit on it right. and with the extra power and traction I am sure this one will too. Do you have any ideas how to add weight to the front to prevent it from doing that?

Took video of test runs but need to go somewhere with better Internet to load them.
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#143978
Got the rest of the parts ordered most should be here by Friday still need to get better epoxy, solder, wire connectors, wire, pvc pipe and small nuts and bolts. Also a helmet. Last night installed battery hold downs and this morning added the stop button to left side of handle bars. Also put a washer under steering rod to get rid of the play in it. Also added a second washer behind the front tires to tighten them up. Still lots of slop in steering but I got plans for how to fix that.
Will upload those pictures tomorrow.
#143989
1: Yes, you are going way overboard for a 6v mini quad!
2: It's freaking awesome and I love every minute of it!

Keep up the good work! If your going through all this for a mini quad, I can't wait to see what your next creation is going to entail!
#143990
Here's the pictures from yesterday. today the controller arrived and 550 motors. 550 motors won't fit in these gear box I need 380 motors. The 550s will be saved for the next project. I Will order better 380's later. The controller is tiny and fits perfectly. I was gonna put it against the back wall, but then I turned it around and Layed it down on the bottom. I like that better it leaves me alot more room. After wiring is done the connectors will be tucked under motors I think. Still waiting for rest of parts most coming tommorow or Friday.
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Last edited by 87bluebird on Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#143991
Bigmac41288b wrote:1: Yes, you are going way overboard for a 6v mini quad!
2: It's freaking awesome and I love every minute of it!

Keep up the good work! If your going through all this for a mini quad, I can't wait to see what your next creation is going to entail!


Thanks a lot of the stuff I am doing to this project aren't really needed on something this small or she won't figure out how to use for a while. but it will teach her to operate power wheels and it tests my abilities and teaches me a lot about building them(especially wiring, electrical and vinyl wrapping, that's were my skills and experience are limited). I look at this thing as practice for when I can build bigger more interesting projects for my kids as they get bigger
#143998
I was not satisfied with the "hi strength" epoxy I first used so I redid it with loctite epoxy I have used loctite epoxy several times in the past with good results. Also added a 3.375 inch long piece of half inch pvc to strengthen the bottom of the body and the axle. I got wire connectors etc that I will need except eyelets so gotta get them still but everything else should be here in tommorows mail.
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#144006
Parts arrived yesterday so started mounting stuff last night. I mounted the shunt, potentiometer, 3dpdt relays, the spst relay, controller and power switch. When I get everything mounted I will wire it and test it then pull it apart clean and wrap then final assembly. Most of it fits perfectly where I want it to. The circuit breaker is for 8 gauge wire and is huge. So I will probably just use an inline 30 amp blade fuse. Only thing I am unsure of how to do is the handlebars and throttle the handle bars are about an inch thick the throttle is designed for 7/8 thick. Fits perfectly over 3/4id pvc got a few ideas just not sure what one is best.
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Works crazy this weekend nobody wants to work so I get stuck with covering a lot of extra shifts so no time to work on this project tonight hopefully tomorrow night if I ain't to tired I will be able to do more. Got a lot to do and Christmas keeps getting Closer so I got to hurry, I should have started it sooner
By Rob222
#144008
You do realize that you are not actually charging the ESC ? That is not what the ESC charge port is for. The charge-port just uses the ESC as a pass-through to charge the batteries. But the stock charger is only rated for a 6v battery. The two batteries in series are now acting like a single 12v battery so if you want to use the charge port through the ESC you will need a 12v charger.

Also, what is the "shunt" for ?
#144010
Yea I realize that. By "it" I meant the whole quad. And I was wondering if there's a way to make the original charger work but there probably ain't. I will probably get a 12 volt charger.

I got a voltmeter / ammeter display I will mount in the upper part of the handle bars. Ik she won't know what the numbers mean that's more for me so I can know if batteries are getting low or if something is wrong causing it to draw extra amps. The shunt is a device that splices into the ground wire. One end hooks to the battery other other end hooks to anything else that is grounded. Then there is two sensing wires one for each end that tell the ammeter how much current goes thru.
#144086
Got 90% of the wiring done wanted to test it. Worked at first. I hi range, lo range, reverse, volt/amp display and, variable speed throttle all worked till I hit the brakes. Brakes worked but after I hit them it was constantly in full throttle even with the throttle unhooked only way to stop it is to hit brakes but everything else still works. Could something be wrong with the controller? Or could it be my wiring? It was all working till then and the only thing that messed up after hitting brakes was the throttle. Shortly after that I accidentally touched the hot wire from power switch to a ground wire and fully fried the controller :( so I just ordered another controller hopefully it gets here by Saturday. But I want to figure out what caused that before I get the new controller so if it's something I did I don't mess up another controller.
#144095
When I finish the wiring I will make the brakes go directly to the relays coil and bypass the controller so don't have to worry about it doing that. Everything else was working and should be fine with the new controller hopefully I can get everything done so when the controller arrives (hopefully Saturday) I can get it bolted in and plugged in and ready for Sunday only wiring I still have to do is throttle /potentiometer wiring motor connectors and redo brake wiring then squish everything into the quad was gonna camo vinyl wrap it but that will be done later. Should have started building this months ago
#144102
Got the new controller today plugged it in. Only wiring that Is different from the last time I tested it is the brakes no longer go through the controller. Everything worked last time till I hit the brakes. Tried to test it again and nothing there is power going into the controller but nothing coming out of it. The blue wire for the main power switch was the hot wire on the first controller (that's the one I bumped into the ground completely finishing off the first controller.) this controller has no power going to blue or pink switch wire. Could this controller be faulty too? If it is she won't be getting this as a Christmas present :(

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