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M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
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KidsWheels
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#33591
So to bring my old thread over from the historical forums...

http://www.modifiedpowerwheels.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9341

So here's my update. It has been running pretty well with the exception of battery life and it can be a pain to charge with the chargers I have. It spends more time down than running and I need to change that since my son keeps asking to ride it. :( The other day I heard one of the gearboxes sounding really bad. I suspect something is stripped, busted, or otherwise fubar'd so I need to get that looked at and order replacement parts if possible.

I had to do away with the automotive starter button accelerator pedal idea since it didn't last long. It was supposed to be rated for 60A but I imagine that is only intermetent duty and not constant duty for something like this. I went back to Autozone and bought a starter solenoid for a ford. It works but not as well as I'd like. When the 12v battery that engages the solenoid starts dying down, it has a hard time keeping the power engaged. I'm looking for another solution. Suggestions?

WOW, I just went back and read my old thread and saw that I never posted finished picts! :o Let me work on that...
#33597
24 volt scooter controller and a hall effect pedal......... You'll be kicking yourself for not doing it sooner!
#33613
taz11 wrote:24 volt scooter controller and a hall effect pedal......... You'll be kicking yourself for not doing it sooner!


+1
#33653
I ended up going with a spray on bedliner 'paint' job. I was never convinced that any spray paint regardless of fusion or not would hold up to a 3 yr old boy's abuse. I used a 3M product and although pricey at about $10 per can, it turned out pretty well. I wish I could have done a different color than black but I think it looks good with the orange wheels. The underside was done in krylon fusion, as was the seat, steering wheel and the inside of the wheels. The chassis was done in a metalic silver.

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#33656
The mechanics of it all. I eventually had to replace the worn out struts with coil over springs to stiffer gas struts. I ordered them from Surplus Center at only a few $$ each and even though they're stiff, they actually work much better than I thought they would. I wish I had gone with them from the beginning.

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#33657
and lastly the flex. It obviously won't climb much being only 2wd and not geared low but it will go over some bumps and I love it when Tristan drives off a curb and flexes it out. :twisted:

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Now to get the gearbox and other stuff fixed so he can drive it more.

We took it out to a 4th of July fireworks show where folks were parked along this road by a field and he got LOTS of cool comments. :mrgreen:
#33722
That is really impressive, can't wait to see some videos. I can't believe you actually used a real steering box, you have serious skills.
I think the next step should be a big scooter motor front and rear :twisted: .
#33748
CMJ wrote:That is really impressive, can't wait to see some videos. I can't believe you actually used a real steering box, you have serious skills.
I think the next step should be a big scooter motor front and rear :twisted: .


That would be cool but I think the cost to do it and the time to re-fab what Ive done wouldn't be worth it. I'll buy him a 4 wheeler once we grow out of this.
#33947
thats awesome. got to be on of the best full suspension setups i've seen
#37714
Just wondering what your final spring/shock rate was. i see you said that you increased it more than you originally thought and it's working well now.

im building a full suspension stroller that will eventually be a small powered vehicle for my little guy, and im trying to figure out what to do about spring rate. i'm using modified mini-bike coilovers, and changing out the springs from original(110lbs) to something more suited for the weight.

any input on spring rate would be helpful. thanks.

here's a pic of some of the parts i've collected to far, and one of the coilovers disassembled and ready for spring replacement.
Attachments
photo (9).JPG
photopic1.JPG
#37803
87jeepwrangler wrote:Just wondering what your final spring/shock rate was. i see you said that you increased it more than you originally thought and it's working well now.

im building a full suspension stroller that will eventually be a small powered vehicle for my little guy, and im trying to figure out what to do about spring rate. i'm using modified mini-bike coilovers, and changing out the springs from original(110lbs) to something more suited for the weight.

any input on spring rate would be helpful. thanks.

here's a pic of some of the parts i've collected to far, and one of the coilovers disassembled and ready for spring replacement.


If I remember correctly I purchased 4 gas springs from Surplus Center that were rated for 105# with a 3" stroke. They can be found here https://www.surpluscenter.com/Item.asp?item=1-3294

They were cheap (at $3.25 each!!) so I bought 4 but I think I only ended up using 2 for the rear since that was where the majority of the weight was going to be when my son was sitting in it. The suspension isn't as supple as what is in the initial pictures but it is what I had to settle on to keep it from squatting or sagging in the rear. I want to say that I used the gas springs that I purchased via McMaster Carr for the front (I think 30 or 40# springs). Keep in mind that I also have the limit chain that keeps the rear height set so I still have down travel (the spring is compressed just a bit at ride height).

A quick update since I'm in here.... :mrgreen: I took apart the offending gearbox and found that one of the gear sets had some melted or worn teeth, hence all the noise. I ordered a new gearbox and got it installed last weekend. I let Tristan go for a ride but he only got about 2 min of riding before the batteries were dead (not fully charged). So now it's on to the next problem...
#37809
thanks for the info and quick response.

is the 105# gas spring rated the same as a standard spring in terms of spring rate? ie. a coil spring with a spring rate of 105 would require 105# for each inch of compression(so for 3", it would require 315lbs of force). are the gas shocks 105# per inch of compression, or would 105# compress the shock completely?


edit:
i did some searching and most sites i found explaining how a gas shock works say something like...

Whether displaced in tension or compression, gas springs provide a nearly constant force through their entire stroke as compared to coil or leaf metallic or composite springs.


here's a neat graph i found showing some of the differences in force required to compress various springs:
Attachments
gas_springs.jpg
gas_springs.jpg (7.15 KiB) Viewed 7608 times
Last edited by 87jeepwrangler on Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#39860
Question about your steering linkage. I am new to the engineering aspect of a solid axle front end like this.
By having a tie rod setup for the steering like you have, your steering is not effected at full flex? I am looking to do something similar and just trying to wrap my head around the best way to run the steering.
Thanks,
J
#39863
jornum... This may help. This is in a Power Wheels Jeep, but it utilizes a Gaucho steering rack. Yours will be the other side up, but the linkage would work the same.
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#39864
Scoutman wrote:so where's the best place to get them? how much?


tnc scooters. the lbd14 is what you want, and its only $20 :D
#39877
AlexL wrote:
Scoutman wrote:so where's the best place to get them? how much?


tnc scooters. the lbd14 is what you want, and its only $20 :D

some questions on this controller... http://www.tncscooters.com/LBD14.php

-It says a 24v controller, how does this work if I'm running 18v, or do I need to up this to 24v? :twisted:
-Do you give the controller power from all onboard batteries and let the hall effect pedal and controller do the rest? I take it there is no high and low speed like before.
-What do you do about reverse?
-I take it the factory wiring harness and switches are now gutted from the vehicle?
-The brake signal feature woudl be cool. As would the lock feature (for when he's been a bad boy)
-There is also a charger plug. Man this would simplify things tremendously but I don't have a 24v charger.
-Getting rid of the huge solenoid I have now would keep the extra drain down to a minimum.
#39883
you can still use high/low fwd/rev. it needs 24 volts input on the battery lead. you can get a 24 volt charger from tnc scooters.

and for the the voltage diffrence you ca do this to adjust the output volts

for keeping high/low fwd/rev you can do this:
STATIC.png


without the accesories:
STATIC - No Accessories.png


if you dont want all the relays, dont worry they arent really neccesarry
no relay diagram:
controller wiring.png


hope I helped ;) ;) :D :P
#40357
AlexL wrote:
if you dont want all the relays, dont worry they arent really neccesarry
no relay diagram:
controller wiring.png


hope I helped ;) ;) :D :P

Not entirely true. Alex, you need to be careful dispensing this type of advice. Yes, it will work as in the diagram without the relays. However, you're not telling the whole story. It simply isn't safe this way. Without the relays, you are sending 24V through switches that are designed for 12V. Doing this could cause the switches to "weld" together, making it impossible to stop and greatly increasing the chances of a wreck with your child behind the wheel.

Alex, if you insist on continuing to push your method on this controller, please tell the whole story.
#40362
Jornum1 wrote:Hey Scoutman, love your setup.
Whats your travel for the front and rear? Its hard to tell by eye in your pics.


I'm not exactly sure but the rear gas springs have 3" of travel to them and I think I can use most of that. Not sure what that equates to at the wheel though. I think the front springs have a little more travel but I'd have to go back to McMaster's spec's to check.
#40388
jam1ej20 wrote:
AlexL wrote:
if you dont want all the relays, dont worry they arent really neccesarry
no relay diagram:
controller wiring.png


hope I helped ;) ;) :D :P

Not entirely true. Alex, you need to be careful dispensing this type of advice. Yes, it will work as in the diagram without the relays. However, you're not telling the whole story. It simply isn't safe this way. Without the relays, you are sending 24V through switches that are designed for 12V. Doing this could cause the switches to "weld" together, making it impossible to stop and greatly increasing the chances of a wreck with your child behind the wheel.

Alex, if you insist on continuing to push your method on this controller, please tell the whole story.



Actually it works fine. The amps kill the switches not the volts. Controllers limit the amps to 30 (in most cases) and therefore save the switches. Running 24 volts through a stock throttle switch will weld it due to excessive arcing. Replace the throttle switch with a controller set up and you are good to go.


That being said, this discussion can be continued in a new thread so scoutman can have his project thread back.

Hyjack over...... ;)
#91341
Kicking this one back up to get it fixed before spring hits. It's been a while since I last messed with this thing and I really need to get some parts on order. Long story short, we bought a house, sold a house, improved both houses, and I've been on travel a lot over the past year so there hasn't been much time for the little crawler. My new shop is now at a workable condition so I can knock this out.

So I'm about to order a LBD14 Controller, a 24v charger, a metal foot pedal, charger plug, and a key switch. I think I'm good on batteries and that they will all fit.
#91402
This project is my inspration. I'm going a basic version of this suspension setup on my boy's lil wrangler. I'm using bicycle seat springs because of their bolt-on pigtail ends, good lateral rigitity, low profile, and long compression stroke. I'm still going to need some sort of side-to-side bracing but not a lot because of the laterally stiff springs.
#92223
So for those scooter controller guru's out there.... I want to keep the factory high/low and forward/reverse. I've seen the schematic posted previously but want to know if I can do without all the relay's. Can I feed the (2) 12v batteries into the stock harness, keep the dash switches, and then feed that output to the scooter controller input? Basically putting the controller system downstream of the old system?

I got a lot of the old stuff pulled out the other night and now it's time to start putting it back together again. :D

On first look I may have to massage the foot pedal into place... I purchased the heavy duty metal one and now am wishing I had gone with the cheaper plastic version. The angle of the floor and the pocket that the pedal fits into is somewhat of a challenge.
#92241
You can't safely due the 24v controller route without the relays. At 24v, there is more power (watts) flowing through everything that the gas pedal switch and shifter switches are not designed to handle. At that voltage, the gas pedal switch is known to eventually "weld" itself shut when pressed.
#92243
daveweber34 wrote:You can't safely due the 24v controller route without the relays. At 24v, there is more power (watts) flowing through everything that the gas pedal switch and shifter switches are not designed to handle. At that voltage, the gas pedal switch is known to eventually "weld" itself shut when pressed.



Volts is not the issue. Amps are what welds switches..... Most controllers are limited to 30 amps, stock batteries are limited to 30 amps....... It will work fine and be as safe as it was originally.

If you put 24 volts to a stock vehicle with out an ESC.....that is a problem waiting to happen.
#92244
I want to keep the factory high/low and forward/reverse. I've seen the schematic posted previously but want to know if I can do without all the relay's. Can I feed the (2) 12v batteries into the stock harness, keep the dash switches, and then feed that output to the scooter controller input? Basically putting the controller system downstream of the old system?



The controller has to be inline BEFORE the stock harness or you will be changing the input voltage and polarity. With a dual 6 volt system this will not work.

Your options are to use a harness out of a single 12v jeep, make your own, remove the high/low portion and rely on the variable speed capability to control speed.

I use 12v a harness and tie the controller output wires in in the area where the pedal switch. would have been.
#92245
#92250
taz11 wrote:
daveweber34 wrote:You can't safely due the 24v controller route without the relays. At 24v, there is more power (watts) flowing through everything that the gas pedal switch and shifter switches are not designed to handle. At that voltage, the gas pedal switch is known to eventually "weld" itself shut when pressed.



Volts is not the issue. Amps are what welds switches..... Most controllers are limited to 30 amps, stock batteries are limited to 30 amps....... It will work fine and be as safe as it was originally.

If you put 24 volts to a stock vehicle with out an ESC.....that is a problem waiting to happen.


True. Amps are amps, but 24v at 30 amps has twice the power (and arc) than you'll get with 12v at 30 amps. I guess I didn't word it very well. Point being that at 24v a stock gas pedal can't handle the arcing and will eventually cause a problem.
#92251
I wont' be running the stock gas pedal. I'm running the metal hall effect scooter foot pedal which is really only telling the controller what to put out.

Concerning the factory harness (metal framed jeep, 2 dash switches), when it runs low speed or reverse (low speed), does it just pull from one battery or run the 2 batteries in parallel? Either way, I'm guessing that the controller won't work with anything less than 24v +-
#92252
Doing more reading... I know, dangerous, right?

So if I drop the high/low requirement I would feed the controller the full 24v then let the controller output go to the factory harness which can then flip the polarity for reverse. The high/low switch doesn't buy me anything so it needs to be taken out. If everything is rated for 30A and I'm not worried about the stock foot pedal welding closed then I should be fine?

If not, tell me what I'm missing?
#92253
Most controllers I am familiar with list a low voltage cut-off. So you are right that you pretty much need 24v for it run. Too much less than that it just won't go.

The batteries will always be run in series for a 24v ESC setup. To get the high and low speeds the motors will either be run in parallel for high speed (both motors get 24v) or run in series for low speed (each motor gets 12v).
#92254
Most controllers don't have a "reverse" function (there is one somewhere in a build thread that did have it...but that would require you do some leg work to find it). Otherwise, you need need to keep the forward/reverse switch wired up.

Also, if you do want to limit the top speed, think about putting a 2k ohm potentiometer (POT) on the signal wire from the pedal to the controller. Look at this thread for info if you are interested (http://forum.modifiedpowerwheels.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4646). I did this for mine and it works great to start out the kids at a slower speed.
Last edited by daveweber34 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#92289
I made a post in another forum but I'll make it here too.

...I had an alarming spark when I was doing a basic test hookup last night. I'm using a right out of the box LBD14 controller with nothing hooked to the motor plug and nothing hooked to either of the brake plugs or the pilot light plug. No relays or other aftermarket wiring, just a very basic test to see some voltage on the meter on the motor contacts.

I had the 2 wires of the key'd ignition switch plugged in the "lock" connector
I had the 2 wires of the charging port plugged into the "charge connector"
I had the 3 wire metal hall effect foot pedal plugged into the "derailleur connector"

I then went to plug in the 24v (from (2) 12v 7ah batteries with a 30A breaker between them). As soon as I touched the second wire to the controller I got an alarming SPARK! It was enough to melt the tips of each of the connectors that I was putting together as well as smoke my fingers and the plastic connector (not the little cute spark one might expect when hooking something up to a battery the first time). After looking things over it seems that I had the input polarity crossed. I did some more checks with the polarity corrected and wasn't able to get any output voltage.

I messed around some more but was getting nothing more accomplished but getting frustrated so I quit early for the evening. Is there a good way to confirm if I've fried this controller or is there something else I've overlooked? Help Please.
#92402
So quick weekend update, I got the jeep up and running this weekend. It turns out that the foot pedal plug was assembled wrong (mfg goof not mine). I was looking at the picture on the TNC scooters website and noticed that the color sequence of wires on the plug was different from mine and that the wires didn't sync up to the controller plug. Red to Red, Black to black, White to Blue. Once I got things straightened out then it worked great. I got it all rough'd in so it would work for a test run but is not tied into the stock harness or any reverse circuits so it's only forward for now. It's pretty quick for how heavy it is. The biggest problem is that the run time isn't very long which I guess is to be expected. The charger tops the batteries off pretty quick tho. I'll see if I can dig up some fresh picts.
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