Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
HobbyMasters M.L. Toys
Gruber
KidsWheels
Adding R/C to your Powerwheels vehicles? Using R/C parts on your Powerwheels?
By AspecAuto
#133259
Hey guys,

I set up my kids new Polaris rzr 24 volts today, have the steering done and have left the Mamba Max Pro 1/10 Electronic Speed Control (ESC) just wondering if I could get some advice on wiring it up. Here is the wiring diagram that came with the polaris, how do I wire in the mamba max pro ?

Thanks
Attachments
Diagram.JPG
Polaris rzr 24 volt 2 speed
Diagram.JPG (32.47 KiB) Viewed 1802 times
By Trip2013
#133272
Use the search function it maybe helpful and quicker.

I had a similar issue with my Escalade I converted, check under projects I posted something about wheel hop, and having wires reversed. Might lead you to something in your project.

I had to do a bit of trial and error to figure out as nothing. Is cut in stone with a custom build
By AspecAuto
#133282
Wired it all up and the wheels hardly turn, they seem to not be getting enough power. Is it possible the motors being 340watt motors are just to big for the mamba max 1/8th scale to transfer power? Would anyone have any other ideas of how to wire this up?
#133283
I found this diagram. Is this how you have it connected? How is your controller setup? Maybe a throttle trim turned too far?

mamba ESC.jpg
By AspecAuto
#133285
That is exactly how I have it wired up, I think I need to program the mamba max. I've been ready it comes out of the box ready for brushless motors, Wish the guys at the RC shop would have mentioned that, they made it seem like it was just plug and play
#133290
I've never done an rc build but with the little I read, you definitely need to set it to brushed
By mr.fusion
#133291
AspecAuto wrote:Wired it all up and the wheels hardly turn, they seem to not be getting enough power. Is it possible the motors being 340watt motors are just to big for the mamba max 1/8th scale to transfer power? Would anyone have any other ideas of how to wire this up?


Handling the motors should not be an issue. I've run the Mamba controllers in rc cars that would pull 1500watts on acceleration. As you mentioned, it needs programmed. Default setting is for brushless motor operation. Programming manually is a pain, but can be done. It's much easier to use one of their programming tools...either the usb computer link, or the field link programming card. The instructions that come with the Mamba explains how to go through all the settings, selecting everything using the throttle trigger. The brushed motor setting is one of the last options to get to in the programming sequence, so it will be a bit of work to do it manually.

What are you using for a throttle?
By mr.fusion
#133292
I know some of the guys at Castle from my rc background....the company in Kansas City who makes the Mamba controllers.... and recall many years ago they stuck one of their rc motor/controller kits in a barbie jeep for some fun. Couple videos on youtube still....

By 66deuce
#133298
Do not be surprised if you let the smoke out of the ESC. There's a good reason that many manufacturers and retailers specifically state that their ESCs should not be used in any application besides that for which it was designed. Yes, these modern brushless ESCs can move tremendous power, but they are designed to do so at a fairly light load. A 10-12 lb 1/8 scale kit has nowhere near the demands of a 50-70 lb BPRO with another 50+ pounds of payload.

A 150 amp rated brushless ESC will have a couple dozen SOT-223 size surface mount micro transistors; a 60 amp rated brushed motor speed control that is appropriate for a BPRO will have 12-20 TO-220 size power transistors with heat sinks.

Personally, I wouldn't use anything short of a 1/5 scale ESC to power a normal size 24V BPRO

the company in Kansas City who makes the Mamba controllers


Castle Creations' manufacturing facility is in China.
By mr.fusion
#133299
I've seen them being made in Kansas with my own eyes. They have facilities in Mexico and China also. They own the plant in China that builds the motors. Unless there has been a total change in their operations in the last few years, they are definitely not just another "made in china" company.

I disagree with the rc car vs ride on toy comparison, although I agree that the PW could be hard on the esc... mainly because the motors could be pushed to their stall limit.... which is a f course a bad deal for the esc. Dead shorting the load can smoke an otherwise capable system. But watts is watts. The esc doesn't know or care what type of work the motor is doing.... either it can handle the load or it can't. A stalled motor could fry an esc no matter how big it is... but on the other hand, moving a 100lb ride on toy 5-10mph is not necessarily more difficult than moving a 10lb rc car 50-70mph.

When I say I've run 1500watt setups, I don't mean that the components are rated for that. I mean that the onboard telemetry meter is measuring the actual current. Running a 4 cell lipo battery, it would pull well over 100 amps at 12-14v... brief peaks of less that one second would be much higher, but for a sustained current for several seconds under full power, it's common to see loads in the 50-100 amp range. ]]

Looking at it from the other end of the system, a 24v 12ah gruber battery would only run about 10 minutes in one of my 1/8 rc cars, theoretically. The loads on the rc cars are no joke. If the power wheels are going to average 20-40 amps and peak at 100+ amps, then I absolutely agree with using a Mamba Monster or Mamba 1/5 escs. My guess is that it won't be anywhere near that.

Reminds me.... I have a 30 fuse in a PW I made for my nephew. It has two 24v 250w scooter motors with chain drive and wide rubber tread tires. So far, it's working well.... geared for only 5-7mph but can almost pull the front off the grass.... and the fuse has not blown.
By mr.fusion
#133301
Btw, the esc will not run brushed motors at all, in the default mode. You are correct that it has to be programmed. Hopefully, no damage was done by trying it that way. I would recommend spending the 25 bucks for a programmer... either the usb link or card link. It's so much easier to set it up and control all the features. You can set throttle curves, reverse delay, brake power, all that stuff. Having it set up well should also go a long way to preventing damage from heavy loads/stalled motor or drive train damage from forward/reverse shock, etc. I think that might be the biggest advantage to using an rc controller like the mamba
By 66deuce
#133331
I disagree with the rc car vs ride on toy comparison, although I agree that the PW could be hard on the esc... mainly because the motors could be pushed to their stall limit.... which is a f course a bad deal for the esc. Dead shorting the load can smoke an otherwise capable system. But watts is watts. The esc doesn't know or care what type of work the motor is doing.... either it can handle the load or it can't. A stalled motor could fry an esc no matter how big it is.


The difference is that in a BPRO, the motors are working very hard all the time, no just during bursts of acceleration. I'm very well versed in RC, currently have 27 kits from 1/36 to 1/8, about half of them brushless EP. I've smoked 150A ESCs in my 12 lb truggy running them hard and continuously for 40 minutes to an hour (3-4 5,000 mAh 4S packs), which as you know, means on average not more than about 1/3 of the time at 50% or greater motor load. On a BPRO, the motor load will be at or above 50% the majority of the time, and in all likelihood much more than 30 minutes continuous.

It's heat dissipation that becomes the issue; those SMTs are smaller, and they do not have dedicated heat sinks, nor is the single heat sink on the ESC anywhere near the surface area of the multiple TO-220 heat sinks in larger general purpose PWM ESCs. As motor and transistor heat increases, component efficiency decreases, and amp draw goes up.

For those who aren't real familiar, let me show you the difference between two 60 amp ESCs, one mounted in my 3 lb RC10B3 buggy motivated by a 3,300 KV (10 turn; 3,300 RPM per volt) 380-cored 540 BLDC can, the other in my red Wrangler project, which is driving twin 68x92mm 320 RPM per volt PMDC motors:

Image

You couldn't even fit 6 of the 16 transistor heat sinks from the BPRO ESC in the space occupied by the entire RC ESC.

but on the other hand, moving a 100lb ride on toy 5-10mph is not necessarily more difficult than moving a 10lb rc car 50-70mph


If you spend 80% of your run time at those speeds, you'll smoke either the motor, the ESC or the battery. Speed runs are high motor load, and things get hot. I've burned up BLDC motors (debonded the REM from the rotor), ESCs and LiPo packs doing speed runs without sufficient cooling or enough time between runs. Some of those that I fried should have been able to take it, such as the RC10GT chassis I E-converted and used a 2,000 KV Kyosho 42mm can, a couple of different 120A and 150A ESCs and 5,000 mAh 80C 4S packs. Again, it's heat. RC parts are just not designed for the continuous heavy load of a BPRO.

If you're into RC, you also know that the ESC manufacturers detail in finer print that the "150A 6S" rating requires the use of lower KV motors, higher final drive ratio and in a lighter weight vehicle. If you try to make a warranty claim on a 1/8 scale 150A ESC that you were running on 6S with a 2,600 KV motor, rockin' a 9:1 final drive ratio in an 11 lb truggy with 4.0" VTR tires, they're gonna laugh at you and tell you to pony up for a new one. The requirements to honor warranty running 6S in a kit that heavy would be something like ≤1,450 KV motor with a ≥12:1 FDR. What do you think happens when you're trying to push a 17 turn brushed motor in a 120 lb kit?

Let me offer another example; had to poke some holes in very hard, rock-filled concrete not long ago, started out with my Dewalt 5.4A 1/2" HD hammer drill. That thing was smokin' hot and noticeably losing power by the 7th hole. A friend lent me his Bosch 11224VSR, which is only 28% more powerful by the numbers. But this drill is meant for concrete work, and the motor and speed control are designed for that continuous heavy loading. That thing poked the other 33 holes without breaking a sweat.

BPROs with kids on them do spend most of their time maxxed out, which is why manufacturers of RC speed controllers specifically tell you not to use them in ride on toys. Hobbyking's warning, for example:

WARNING
This is an R/C plane/heli only ESC. Do not attempt to use it to power car, buggy, skateboard, go-kart or similar machines. The programming logic is only designed for R/C Planes and Heli and will burn if applied to other devices.


Looking at it from the other end of the system, a 24v 12ah gruber battery would only run about 10 minutes in one of my 1/8 rc cars


Aside from the fact that SLA and AGM batteries do not have the burst output capacity of LiPoly, that battery has much more total power than a standard 1/8 scale 4S 5,000 mAh pack. 4S 5,000 mAh = 14.8V 5Ah, or 74 watt hours. The 24V 12Ah SLA has 288 watt hours. In other words, about 4 times the juice. Trust me, the math works; the mean draw of a 1/8 scale RC on 4S on a track is about 25 amps; at 74 watt hours, that gives you .21 hours run time, or about 12 minutes. If you ran your car on the 24V 12Ah battery and metered your throttle to use the same wattage (more volts/less amps=same total power), you'd get around 45 minutes run time.

In the end, I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, just trying to help some people understand that the manufacturers specs don't tell the whole story. Just as many a firearm design that'll run 20,000 rounds without a breakage in semi-auto might destroy itself after a couple thousand rounds of full auto, and just as a 1/2 ton truck can carry a ton and a half a few times in it's life but will smoke wheel bearings and axles if continuously loaded with 1 ton, an RC ESC that can handle very high amps for brief periods cannot take the kind of load it's ratings indicate it should when used in a BPRO or other application that causes the motors to operate at moderate to high loads most of the time.
By mr.fusion
#133332
You make some good points. I helped pioneer 1/8 electric rc, and have also run countless systems in all sorts of applications. I've been out of it for a while now...getting a little rusty perhaps, but I have 20+ years in various levels of the hobby. I don't have so much experience with ride ons.... but it's not so different. Wattmeters don't lie, and much can be learned by observing how well, or not so well.... a given motor or battery can handle the load. Titans would not survive 2 minutes in a race truggy, for example. Keep in mind that not all escs are built with equal components, and size of a circuit board does not tell the story. Some use much better fets, on multiple layers, thus allowing a much more compact design. Not as simple as physical size, or even total # of fets. Cooling is a big factor, yes. I would often run fans on escs... but it's not always needed. Lot of variables. In rc, many failures are due to braking.... repeated hard braking puts a lot of stress on the esc, creates a lot of heat too.

Might have missed my point on the gruber battery comparison. Of course, it's vastly different than lipo. I can do the math. In fact, I was building my own lipo packs and 1/8 conversions more than 10 years ago, long before they took over rc. Gearing, voltage, KV, all that..... I get it. When I helped build the first 1/8 electric buggy to hit the market, I argued with the chinese mfg about what KV motors to use for our target 4 cell lipo setup. They didn't get it, and wanted a 2500-3500kv with the typical stock 13/46 gearing. I told them the sweet spot is around 2000, but they didn't listen. Chinese mfg can be stupid. Anway, I don't have a lot of experience with ride ons, so correct me if I'm guessing wrong.... but don't most kids ride around more than 15 minutes? Average load of 24A drops a SLA capacity to 50%.... 6ah = 15 minutes. So I'm figuring real world average load is somewhere south of that. Btw, don't buy into what a controller is rated. "120A, 150A" are just labels the mfg slaps on there.... just a general guideline, at least to compare within a specific brand.
By 66deuce
#133354
Anway, I don't have a lot of experience with ride ons, so correct me if I'm guessing wrong.... but don't most kids ride around more than 15 minutes? Average load of 24A drops a SLA capacity to 50%.... 6ah = 15 minutes. So I'm figuring real world average load is somewhere south of that.


12V 12Ah lasts 12 hours supplying 1 amp, 1 hour supplying 12 amps, 30 minutes supplying 24 amps. IME, most BPROs will run somewhere between 25-45 minutes on a heathy 12120 battery, depending on driver weight and how hard they're run. That tells us the mean amp draw is between 16 and 29 amps, or 190-350 Watts. That would also be consistent with the choice of 14 AWG wire in most 12V BPROs; 6 or 7 feet carrying 30-40 amps, possibly as much as 50 amps at times of high load requires 16 AWG minumum, 14 AWG with a safety margin.
By mr.fusion
#133392
Yes, the math is simple to do, and obvious. Ohms law and understanding battery charge and discharge capacities, etc should be a your buddy if you do much in rc. Can't even correctly charge a lipo if you don't get amp-hours, volts, c-ratings, etc :) What I was looking for is real world experience to back up the assumption of what typical load is with a BPRO. Without getting into how the loads may differ in peak vs constant current, etc vs rc, the averages are in the same ballpark as a typical 1/8 electric being run pretty hard. That's why I used the BPRO 30A fuse, motor, and the battery drain as examples to show that the demands on the controller is not that extreme. You point out the wiring itself, which also illustrates it well. None of those components would survive in a 1/8 electric vehicle.

Long thread to explain why imo a good rc controller like the mamba.... should have no issues. Perhaps, if it's run full throttle in tough conditions like hills or tall grass, etc.... non-stop.... I could understand needing some cooling or better yet, the mamba monster instead of the mamba pro. In any case, a small cooling fan mounted to the heatsink is a good idea.

At this point, I wish I had installed a castle controller in my gator.... just to see for myself. That's something I have in mind for next year if we have any trouble with the current scooter controller setup. Thing just about does wheelies, so maybe my nephew will let the smoke out by the end of summer... lol

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