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Electronic Scooter Controllers have become a popular addition to our vehicles. Ask specific questions about ESCs here!

***WARNING*** this section is for ADVANCED MODDERS. if you try anything in this section you NEED to expect minor issues with the build up to and including complete FAILURE of EVERYTHING in your freshly built BPRO.

Have fun ;-) :-)
#94471
keaster wrote:Hey all, I have a 5 year old with a Escalade that's asked me to make faster so after much research have found that using a ESC with 24v seems like a logical idea! parts seem cheap enough and with my electronic background I think I can pull it off, I read about that with a variable throttle it will help save from killing gear boxes because of the throttle it will quickly ramp up from zero to full, not just full on like a stock pedal, this thought seem ok on pavement but what about on grass where there's more resistance holding the wheels from spinning?

I was think with install the ESC and see how well that works then try upgrading to a better motor after.

The first part I found was relays, being from Canada the places listed isn't a good source for Canadian shipping so I ordered these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280701738307?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

shipping is slow but free


Yes, the ESC still works well on grass.
#95511
Been looking at these controllers more and more and seem like all the ones people say to use tncscooters is out of stock. The question I have now is if its a 24v controller you can't run 12 or 18 because there is a under volt protection, I wanted to install everything and run 12 then be able to add more voltage as need be, is there a way to disable the under voltage protection?
#95513
Look up "Bonner Governor" on this site. You can use a cheap variable resistor to control the Hall Effect Pedal output to limit the speed of this 24v set-up until your Kid is ready for more speed. It easy compared to the ESC, which you don't appear to be scared of. :)
#96510
Ok everything is wired up on my bench powered it up with 24v there was a small spark but only the first time on the battery terminal, connected the power locks wires relays work perfect the problem is 0 volts from the motor output! I using this pedal http://tncscooters.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=65_79_83&product_id=88
I hooked red to red, black to black, green to blue if that right and I push the pedal Nothing!! is the LBD14 Dead?

Another thing I found is why are these a 30amp controller? when the MBR20100 diode used in the H-bridge in the controller is only rated for 20amp?
Last edited by keaster on Sun May 12, 2013 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#96628
I have used that Pedal several times with good success, guessing that's not a problem.
You have the Lock Connector either Shorted, I'm guessing from your Post.
Sounds like your Hall Pedal is correct.
Do you have ANY of the Brake Connectors connected to anything? That's a real problem for these particular ESC's.
I don't know what it could be, the spark is normal, you are reading better than 21v from the Batts?
It is possible the Controller was bad from the Factory, they're not exactly "High End" at the $20 price point.
#96850
daveweber34 wrote:It was listed in the very first post. Treebeme had a parts list with links in it. All you had to do was look at that. But if you must, here it is: http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=11-2420&catname=electric




Really you don't think I seen that? I ordered all my parts from the first post. But if you look at that link for the relays, it says 0 in stock. I even called them and was told they had bought a bunch of surplus and now they sold out of them and are not expecting anymore. That's why I asked

Thanks for the help
Last edited by TrgrHpy on Fri May 17, 2013 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#96893
Look, triggerhappy, there are plenty of people who don't always get every post answered. Hell, I've had boat loads of posts that haven't been answered. This board has a lot of very friendly and helpful people. We just don't always jump every time for every single question. We all have lives to live too.

Now, to your question.....
If you are looking to tackle an ESC install, you must be reasonably good (if not better) at wiring and reading wiring diagrams. Do some Google searches for double pole, double throw relays (DPDT). I don't have a particular place to mention. I would only be able to list those I find in a Google search. So, when you search, just hone in on those that approximate the values found in that one from the Surplus Center. You are a smart guy, I am sure you will be able find some that will fit your install. Good luck and feel free to ask again if you have any questions.
#96940
daveweber34 wrote:Look, triggerhappy, there are plenty of people who don't always get every post answered. Hell, I've had boat loads of posts that haven't been answered. This board has a lot of very friendly and helpful people. We just don't always jump every time for every single question. We all have lives to live too.

Now, to your question.....
If you are looking to tackle an ESC install, you must be reasonably good (if not better) at wiring and reading wiring diagrams. Do some Google searches for double pole, double throw relays (DPDT). I don't have a particular place to mention. I would only be able to list those I find in a Google search. So, when you search, just hone in on those that approximate the values found in that one from the Surplus Center. You are a smart guy, I am sure you will be able find some that will fit your install. Good luck and feel free to ask again if you have any questions.



My apologies. After 3 LONG 20 hr shifts I was extremely tired and on edge. This does seem like a good place with lots of friendly and helpful people. Honestly that was why I joined. Sometimes I quick to pull the trigger and takes things personally. Hence the name trgrhpy. Lol. Again I apologize.


And FYI. The relays were like $5 on surplus center. They no longer carry them. I was only able to find them at 2 places for like $28 each. After some more research I found them for $24 for 3 with free shipping. Cheapest I found. If anyone needs them I can post the link.

Thanks again
#100548
Any chance someone has the ability to generate a new schematic with the new brake wireing?

I can work from a complete schematic, and have my current PW wired according to one of the early diagrams. With tail head and brake lights, but i fried my esc. Do not want to fry another
#100553
I use allied electric a lot for my parts needs. A quick search only gave me one choice for a 30amp 24vdc relay which was surprising to me. I figured why not just do real 24 volt relays......

They were basically 16 bucks each.

Bob E.
#100807
TrgrHpy wrote:Wow never mind. I guess this is one of those forums that if you are a new member you don't matter. I've posted 3 times and all 3 have been ignored. Maybe you guys should not even accept new members. Us "newbies" are not important.



Wow, TrgrHypy, you gave the forum 3 hours to respond and then took it personally when no one did?????

I know you have since apologized, but a three hour window on one of the longest running post on the board. I personally only check this post once every couple of weeks so I can get caught up. Since I didn't know you existed I can assure you I was not ignoring the forum so I could ignore your personal post. More to the point,... if I had I seen it I would not have been able to answer your question. Again, not because I would have been ignoring you and epecially not because you were new,.... it would simply have been because your question was outside of my scope.

If you have followed the "entire thread" you should be aware that there are probably 5 people who are really fielding the bulk of the questions in this particular forum. If one of them is a guy (like you) who happens to be pulling some long shifts, reading any of the post here may not be his top priority. No one should feel that it has anything to do with the number of post they have generated in the past, life is just happening all around him. Even if the people in question are pulling regular 9 to 5 jobs, after a guy gets home, hugs his wife, cuts his grass, breaks bread with his family, spends a little time with his kids and catches up on the news, three hours can go by really quickly, again, this would in no way reflect positively or negatively or the number of post any user has or the members willingness to reply to a request based on those number of post. He too is just a guy with "other stuff" going on in his life.

Now, you can do what you want (it being a free country and all), but you may want to consider giving the guys who you expect to help you today (and in the future), a small break in how long you give them to reply to your "the world is coming to an end" question".

By they way,....... Welcome to the forum,........ Don't be a stranger, but also don't freak out just because you are the first one to get to the bar,.......... It is not a reflection of the shirt you are wearing, the fresh smell of your newly minted membership or the number of post you put up before inviting us out. ------ EVERYONE IS COMING, just figure its traffic and we are running a little late (smile).

Racer X
Last edited by Racer X on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#104936
I have some used ones that I was going to post on the For Sale this week. If you're interested. They work perfectly, I just wire up our rides differently now.
#105618
Looks like TNC doesn't carry the hinged foot throttle any more :(
Does anyone have a new source for that part?

Apologies if the answer is already here somewhere and I'm just being lazy...
#105631
I know they have been found on E-Bay (I'm trying to find a listing). Then I know places like MonsterScooters have them, they're terribly proud of them at $30+ though. I guess we could collectively look for a new reliable source?
#109003
Let me start off saying that I feel really bad for all the problems people have been having. Maybe I was just lucky or had earlier revisions of the controller but mine ran rock solid for years using this configuration on multiple vehicles.

In reading this thread (haven't been here in a while) it seems that the problem is that the draw of the coil on the 25amp brake relay is too high and burning out the controller, correct? If that is truly the only problem then that can fixed with almost no modifications to the existing diagram beyond adding a much smaller spst relay off the brake light connector that in turn then allows power to flow (directly from the batteries through the relay) to the actual brake lights and brake relay. It does add another $2 part and a little more wiring but it would dramatically reduce the strain on the controller.
#109222
Treebeme,

It isn't your fault that the internal specs and components of the controllers TNC Scooter has have changed. It's been over a year since I last cooked a LBD-14, but that circuit on the board that handles the coil for the brake relay is garbage. I hooked up my ammeter and the coil for the brake relay only draws about 80 mAmps (.08 amps) when energized. If the brake circuit on the LBD-14 can't handle 80 mAmps, it is junk. Even if you would use a smaller relay, how much less draw can you expect from a relay coil? If 80 mAmps kills the controller, will 60 mA? 40 mA? I don't want to be the test subject at $25 or $30 a pop to find the magical limit that makes their poorly designed circuit work.

Anyways, this is a killer thread that you started and I'm glad you put all the work into it that you did. I know I appreciated it.

Dave
#112423
That is my exact question. I have a great opportunity to "fix" a broken PW toy and will convert to 24 volt. What controller can I use? I saw the old LBD-14 is available for double the price on eBay, but is that the same old one that will work with care that everyone used here?

Next question, If I build a BPRO from scratch, is 48 volt the way to go for max runtime, reliability, and endurance?

Most importantly, I have to know what is the best 24 volt controller available....

Bob E.
#112444
On picking a controller:
The LBD-14 was the "ESC of Choice" because of it's price and performance characteristics. it is basically a very simple 24v/500w/30amp controller that fits in-line with the most common build requirements: 24v (about all that a PW's Gear Boxes will handle), no need for reverse, 30amps is a safe amperage for the average PW switches/motors and $20 is Cheap!
To keep it simple, all you are looking for is something in the same "Power" range, 24v/30amp/500w. Minimum Connectors: Throttle, Motor, Battery, Charge Port. Any thing more could be considered "Extras". There are infinite controllers and configurations out there for use, so...Read?
I have used ESC's salvaged from all kinds of old Junk Scooters, Razor, eZips, iZips, Currie, Shwinns, etc... If you can get your mind around what these Controllers are actually doing you will be better able to judge what is an appropriate "Fit" for your needs. Hopefully the list of "Minimums" will get you started?

"Next question, If I build a BPRO from scratch, is 48 volt the way to go for max runtime, reliability, and endurance?"
In Short: NO! 48v will give you the Exact Opposite of all of the things you listed.
#112484
Thank you for the words of wisdom on controllers. I didn't want to get stuck with a bad controller, but who can argue with so many LBD-14s out there. Sure wish it were still being stocked by TNC.

Can we talk reverse? My little girl is used to her PW having reverse.....is there a better way to do this other than using the one and only 'reverse' controller that TNC stocks? This may sound stupid, but she backs into parking spots around the house all the time. I am actually suprised how good she can control her old yellow jeep when she wants to.

Bob E.
#112500
Reverse is accomplished either through the Stock shifter switches or Relays. It's simply a matter of reversing polarity, no "computer" needed:). So you don't need to bother with the ESC with Reverse.
#114573
Here is a mod to the original master diagram for the LBD-14. It allows for complete functionality while bypassing the troublesome integrated brake feature.

STATIC.png
#114575
And this is the same diagram without the high/low feature.

STATIC-s.png
#114664
Another variation. This uses the acc battery for the lights and relay switching instead of the pilot connector, which eliminates the need for the 100 ohm resistors. If you want the key switch to cut acc power too, than you can use the pilot connector to trigger a main power relay and you will need a 100 ohm resistor for the main power relay control circuit. (I personally haven't had a problem with relays on 24v even in the control circuit, but using the resistor is safer)

Image
#114983
Thatoneguy wrote:Someone could seriously capitalize off of this, way took complicated for me to figure out. Someone should make a wiring harness, complete, with just the motor leads, battery leads, and throttle/brake leads. All labels and ready to hook up, I know I would buy one :)


Unfortunately this is considered "advanced" modding and as such, is more of a labor of love. With the wide variety in the BPRO world, you could make a lot more money making shoes in a 3rd world sweat shop than putting together ESC harnesses that could actually be used in more than one vehicle. :x

Fortunately, the ESC's typically come with labels already, and there's lot's of assistance to be found on this site. So roll up your sleeves and let your family know not to be concerned if the smoke alarm happens to go off a couple times during your project... ;) :D :lol:
#115168
If you browse through this forum, you will see multiple options for using an ESC. The simplest way is to just replace your throttle pedal with your variable pedal and ESC and reuse the rest of the wiring as-is. Or, as these recent diagrams show, you ditch all the factory wiring and start fresh using relays. There are also ESCs with reversing capability and they eliminate the need for the fwd/rev relay(s). Multiple paths, pick one that suits you.
#115220
A couple more variations. This uses a single resistor to knock the 24v pilot signal down to 12v for the switches and relays. It adds in a master pot to limit speed available to the driver. It has a remote kill module tied into the brake circuit to not only cut power but also activate the brakes and shut down the excitement. :roll: Depending on if the remote kill module switches power or ground, the module along with the brake pedal could be flipped to the ground side of the brake relay instead of the positive side as is shown in the diagrams.

The 4wd mod is going to require 10 or 12 gauge wiring, although the current bottleneck will most likely be the LBD-14 ESC, not the wires. To really work well you would need a higher watt capacity ESC (around 700-1000 watt) and the 10 gauge wire on the load side of the schematic, or a dual ESC setup.

STATIC-s-rc-p-4wd-sm.png


STATIC-s-rc-p-sm.png
#117092
I appreciate the schematics and I am almost done with the wiring. My confusion comes in at the Hi/Low/Rev switch wiring. No matter which way I flip controller - it doesn't match drawing. One switch sets higher or more forward than the other. I don't want to screw anything up. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
#117147
desertracer816 wrote:I appreciate the schematics and I am almost done with the wiring. My confusion comes in at the Hi/Low/Rev switch wiring. No matter which way I flip controller - it doesn't match drawing. One switch sets higher or more forward than the other. I don't want to screw anything up. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


I highly recommend forgetting about the "hi/low" relay. You already have variable throttle, you probably wouldn't be spending the money and trouble going to 24v/ESC if your child wasn't ready to go beyond "stock hi" range. Without the hi/low relay, you only need two wires going to the shifter to trigger the reverse solenoid and you can connect them pretty much anywhere you want (from center terminal to an outside terminal in the same row).
#117593
So I rewired everything forgoing the Hi/Lo relay and used the above most recent schematic. I get 24v at everything.. except the following I only get Continuity beep from tester. (From ESC - pigtail labeled Indicator and all 3 wires from pigtail labeled Derailleur) (From Relay - all 4 coil posts) Is this accurate? As you can tell... fairly new to all of this... but not sure why it isn't working? Relays won't trip when selector is moved either. Is ESC bad? I appreciate the help. Not sure why if I'm getting power at motors... they won't go?? My little one is dying to drive her car.
#117596
Check your key switch and key switch connections. If it's not working you won't see any power on the pilot circuit or the deraileur
#117973
desertracer816 wrote:So I jumpered the key switch plug from the ESC and it worked. Can I bypass the ESC and relay with the gear selector for forward and reverse? How and where would I wire it to if I did that? I appreciate the help.


So you definitely have a bad key switch. I'm not sure what you mean about bypassing the ESC. If you wanted to go simpler, you could try this instead http://forum.modifiedpowerwheels.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=15623, but since you've already invested, I would stay the course.
#118882
So you definitely have a bad key switch.


That was it.. I am up and running. Everything works great. I need to work in a brake system in some how now. I also wanted to hear thoughts on this kill switch set up. How and where would I wire it in the above mentioned diagrams?

http://www.amazon.com/Remote-Engine-Switch-12-24VDC-Systems/dp/B006LE2W0U
#119584
crh wrote:Desert Racer, 816 Can you tell me how you set up the reverse? I have everything but reverse working.


Are you going to be using the DPDT relay for reverse?
#119659
We may need to back up a few steps. Are you running an ESC? What vehicle are you modifying?

The diagram you posted is for an auto soft start system, not as sophisticated as the one CJB offers, but effective. It is not, however, an ESC.

If this is what you were shooting for, then just connect the wires as shown to only one of the switches in your shifter. Try it, if you don't like the position, you can swap the wiring to the other switch in the shifter.
Last edited by toycrusher on Thu May 01, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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