Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
HobbyMasters M.L. Toys
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KidsWheels
Electronic Scooter Controllers have become a popular addition to our vehicles. Ask specific questions about ESCs here!

***WARNING*** this section is for ADVANCED MODDERS. if you try anything in this section you NEED to expect minor issues with the build up to and including complete FAILURE of EVERYTHING in your freshly built BPRO.

Have fun ;-) :-)
#73778
Thanks for the help with that! I will test that out later tonight. I had corresponded with Chris just after I ordered the part because I had been reading about all of the problems with the part I had just ordered. He had told me that he was aware of some of the issues but assured me that they had tested over 50 pcs of the controller and everything passed. He also insisted I follow the diagram on this site exactly as illustrated, which I did.

I will be sure to check the signal and let you and Chris know what I found out.

All of my relays are switching as they should with the exception of the brake relay that will switch when the system is powered up.
#74524
I just got off the phone with Chris at TNC, he told me he's going to post here soon with an "official" statement, but here is the long and the short of our conversation.

The LBD14 was never meant to handle the loads we are putting on it. There is a diode on the board for the brake light circuit that was meant to handle less than 1 watt (I think he said like .25) that with our current circuit diagram, we are putting around 88 on it when the brake is pressed. So we are frying controllers.

He also said that none of the controllers that he sells are spec-ed to handle this load as is designed in the diagram. The only thing that circuit was meant to handle was the LEDs.

He told me that he is working with the Yi-Yun company who makes them. A while ago, they changed their controller circuitry, and they can no longer handle the wattage being placed on them. The Yi-Yun company is working with Chris to find a way to make this diagram work. Chris said he is waiting on a response from them before he makes a post on here, and his website.

He told me that the Blue-Sky controller is spec-ed about the same as the LBD14, and he would not recommend using it as diagramed either.

One thing he brought up was the size of the relay that the brake light circuit is moving. I'm not that well versed in electric circuitry or relays to know how to remedy this issue, but I thought I could at least stop anyone else from wasting their money on a controller for this diagram, at least until it gets corrected so it functions correctly.
#74701
I guess I'll buy what your saying. It seems odd to me that the circuit can't even hand just a few hundred mA needed to run the control side of the brake relay. All of my failures happened on the bench when there wasn't even any braking involved. Just press the pedal and *poof*, no go. Also, that still doesn't explain the runaway controller issue that many of us had (my self included).

I guess I better take the time to do a proper wiring diagram of how to bypass the brake and brake light circuits on both controllers (LBD-14 and Blue Sky LK-02). I have one up, but that is chicken scratch compared to the contributions that many members make as far as wiring goes.
#74828
This is what I heard from Chris at TNC Scooters, "As I'm sure you have read on the Modified Power Wheels forum we have been working with the manufacturer in China to see if we can determine why the users on the Modified Power Wheels forum are having problems with the LBD14 controller. Early information that has come back from the manufacturer is that the controllers internal design can not support the relay that is connected to the brake light connector. They were only expecting a light bulb between 1/4 watt and 3 watts to be connected to the brake light connector, not a relay. They have indicated they will have a more detailed answer for us on Monday or Tuesday of next week. Our hope is that they can provide some type of solution."

I would have to agree that it seems odd that we have two different issues going on with these controllers. Mine failed the moment everything was connected and powered up before the brake was applied.

I guess until a new controller is found I will have to look into a way to wire in an ESC and bypass the brake systems. I don't need high and low "gears" just forward and reverse.
#74847
Going off what Tifosa quoted from Chris, could one connect in a SPDT relay using the brake signal to activate the coil on it but pull power from the batteries (come off just one battery for 12V) and send this power to the DPDT relay as depicted in the drawing already? Basically thinking a smaller relay won't tax the brake control circuit as much? I'm just trying to find an easy solution that doesn't involve a whole new parts list as I just got everything in and am mid build right now, well paused build at the moment till this gets resolved.
#74903
When I look at the LBD14 pcb I see power for the "brake lights" coming from the 24v battery connection directly, going only through wire and pcb traces, not through a single component.

Look for yourself.
the vcc+ for the hall pedal and the charge vcc+ are the only connections that I see going through components first.
HOW CAN THIS CONTROLLER EVEN SEE HOW MANY AMP/WATT ARE GOING TO THE BRAKE LIGHTS??????

You could cut away 75% of this board (from the beginning of T4) and still have working brakes, indicator power, and power locks which all are just switching power by direct physical connections to your battery power.

Image
#75164
Hey Dave, can you please post a bigger/clearer picture of this?
Image

I'm debating just doing this, since I already have two LBD14s in this condition, so it's cheaper to just do this and use the same diagram on the next car I convert with the other broken controller.
#75264
OK, so I did some testing on one of my failed controllers that isn't in the Gaucho right now.

This is the diode that I am seeing let current flow both directions. It reads about 100 on my multimeter both ways. (I have no idea what that means) For comparison, the D3 diode is reading about 676 in one direction, and the D2 diode is reading about 580.

SAM_2212.jpg
D4 is the bad diode
SAM_2212.jpg (113.69 KiB) Viewed 7568 times


I can't get the motors any power while this diode is bad, since it's choking it off internally. How can I tell what size diode this is so I can replace it? I can see that it says T4 on it, but so does the D3 diode. Does that mean anything in particular, or do I have to try and get Chris to get YiYun to tell him the diode specs so I can fix it?
Last edited by schoeny on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#75277
LBD-14~1.png
Edit: Changed diagram to better illustrate how I actually have it wired.
LBD-14~1.png (7.87 KiB) Viewed 7549 times


Ok. So basically what I did was get rid of using the brake signal and brake light connectors. I even ditched the relay I originally had installed as it is not needed.

Since the motor B+ wire is soldered right to the battery B+ input on the board, the motor B+ is always hot. So, when you are wiring up the motor connector, you can sneak in an extra 20 gauge wire to it to run B+ to the brake pedal. Since the brake pedal is normally open in the configuration I have displayed, the brakes will be off. Step on the brake pedal and it will close and provide power to the RY1 brake relay along with any brake lights that you have wired upped.

I hope this helps.
Last edited by daveweber34 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#75279
schoeny wrote:
I'm debating just doing this, since I already have two LBD14s in this condition, so it's cheaper to just do this and use the same diagram on the next car I convert with the other broken controller.


Yes, with my new diagram there really isn't any extra cost at all. In fact, I might even save you some money since you don't need to use the two pin connectors anymore from the brake signal and brake light circuits on the LBD-14.
#75393
Okay, so if I have an LBD14 that is "toast" and the brakes are on at power up, is my ESC worthless or will it work with this latest set up? Can I just omit the brake connections and this ESC will still run or do I need to replace it?

I am a little confused as to how the above diagram works into the existing model. I think I understand the RY1 connection. Do I need to add a terminal strip?
#75423
Tifosi wrote:Okay, so if I have an LBD14 that is "toast" and the brakes are on at power up, is my ESC worthless or will it work with this latest set up? Can I just omit the brake connections and this ESC will still run or do I need to replace it?

I am a little confused as to how the above diagram works into the existing model. I think I understand the RY1 connection. Do I need to add a terminal strip?



If you have a controller that is "toast", no this will not help. According to Schoeny, there is a bad diode that is not blocking electrons like it is supposed to. This is leading the controller to think the brakes are on when in fact they aren't. This set up pretty much needs to be done from the start to use the current batch of LBD-14 controllers.

I use the terminal strip because I have brake lights. The terminal strip provides a convenient way to go from one wire to the two needed for the RY1 brake relay and the brake lights and then back to a common ground wire.
Last edited by daveweber34 on Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#75435
I wonder if removing that diode completely would fix it? Since Dave's diagram doesn't actually use the brake circuit at all, if you remove the diode, then there is no power getting to the brake lights/brakes, and your throttle should work if it isn't tied to something else...

I'll try this either tomorrow night or sometime this weekend and report back.
#75443
schoeny wrote:I wonder if removing that diode completely would fix it? Since Dave's diagram doesn't actually use the brake circuit at all, if you remove the diode, then there is no power getting to the brake lights/brakes, and your throttle should work if it isn't tied to something else...

I'll try this either tomorrow night or sometime this weekend and report back.


I was thinking that exact same thing. Report back with results if you could please.
#75474
Well, I tried this last night, nothing changed that I noticed. Still had power to the BL right away, and still no throttle response.

What I don't understand looking at the diagram, is how are you ever NOT going to have power to the BL? If you look at this picture, power goes straight from the battery to the red ignition wire. When you turn the key, it goes to the blue ignition wire, which is soldered to the same place on the board that the + wire for the Brake Lights is...

I was staring at the board trying to figure out how to cut the signal that is stopping the throttle from working, but I have no idea where to do that, since it appears that the BL always should have power according to this.


Image[/quote]
Last edited by schoeny on Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
#75511
Schoeny,

On a new controller, the brake light circuit is ground side switched. So, yes, it will always have power through the entire circuit and back into the controller. The way to test the brake light circuit is when the connector is unplugged. Something on the board is causing the ground side of the brake light circuit to be closed. This leads me to think that the problem may be coming from the brake signal circuit, but that is just a guess. If something is messed up on the brake signal circuit, the controller could be "thinking" that the brakes are pressed and activating the brake light circuit because of this.

At some point in the past I took a few minutes to look a the board, but kind of threw my hands up since I didn't have a wiring diagram to go off of. Once I get my ride painted and reassembled, maybe I'll try looking at my bad controller again and see if I can figure it out. I don't hold high hopes though since I have no wiring diagram to go off of.
#75522
Same here. In staring at it, that orange diode (at least I think it's a diode) in the middle of the board kind of caught my eye. It seems to be connected to a couple things around the brakes/throttle. Don't think I tested it when I tested the others.

Since I've got two bad ones, it wouldn't hurt to gut one trying to figure it out, then have the other to apply the "fine tuned" fix to.

I will be playing around with these a lot this weekend trying to figure it out (in between football of course).
#76666
I did play with it a little more. Took the orange diode off, but nothing changed as far as I could tell.

I'm kind of stuck for ideas as far as what to disconnect so that there is no brake signal.
#79059
I have some orders coming up that are all 24v conversions. I have been reading the last few pages and I'm concerned about purchasing anymore LBD-14 controllers at the rate of failure I'm seeing in the posts. I purchased a good size lot of them awhile back and just used the last two on my son's two driveway racers. I have not had any problems with any of the ESC's installed so far!

Do I need to find a substitute controller or ??? or is there another way to still get brakes and bypassing the ESC?
Last edited by All4TheBoys on Sun Sep 23, 2012 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#79078
Look up at daveweber's post about 10 posts up. If you wire a brake pedal using the motor + wire, then you can effectively wire around the brake portion of the controller, thus eliminating any concern for its longevity.

I have to buy a new controller since mine are fried, and this is how I will be wiring it.
#79089
schoeny wrote:Look up at daveweber's post about 10 posts up. If you wire a brake pedal using the motor + wire, then you can effectively wire around the brake portion of the controller, thus eliminating any concern for its longevity.

I have to buy a new controller since mine are fried, and this is how I will be wiring it.



Thank you sir!
#84630
I just finished doing this setup in a Lightning McQueen I picked up for my nephew which I hope to deliver for Thanksgiving. Anyway, I finished the wiring tonight and can't seem to get any power to the motors. I have checked the pedal input and output, 5V in and max of 3.7V out (I have a pot inline to limit it) and verified that the wires match up to the controller connector. I used the modified wiring above for the brakes utilizing the B+ wire, and never tried the ESC in any other config. If I hit the brake switch RY1 clicks. If I go into reverse RY3 clicks. If I shift between low and high I get no clicking. One note, I waited until everything was connected before hooking up the battery connector. When I did so I got a good spark. I have 24V at the B+ motor wire and about 3.5V on the other motor wire. I have two .18amp fans on the pilot light wiring which do come on when I turn the key switch indicating the ESC turning on.

Can anyone guide me through some more diagnostic checks? I checked for voltage at the motors in a variety of states with nothing. Also checked to see if I ever had continuity at the motor negative with the battery and nothing. I have gone back through my wiring and everything seems to be in line with the diagram. Suggestions? I do have another LBD-14 unopened just in case but I want to check all other avenues before I plug this one in as I really need the car finished for next week. I just don't know how to differentiate between a potential relay problem and a ESC problem.

EDIT 1: In troubleshooting I found that I had the wires on the HI/LO and RVSE switch on backwards end to end. Once I flipped those I now get clicking when I shift from HI to LO and into reverse. Still not getting anything to the motors though. Not sure why I have 3V on one motor wire out of the controller and 24V on the other.

EDIT 2: I got it!! I noticed whenever I hooked up the battery connection to the controller that RY1 would close. Also it seemed like the signal to the motors was shorting. I checked my voltage coming from the brake pedal and realized that it was always passing through power which was activating the brake relay. Once I moved the signal wire to the other side of the brake switch, and replaced the now fried LBD-14, everything was good to go. Well, actually I have to switch all the wire I mentioned in EDIT 1 back because HI was acting as RVSE and vice versa. Switched everything back and now good to go. I'm super excited to bring the car with me to my Thanksgiving family gathering. Have a little nephew that is gonna be absolutely thrilled.

EDIT 3: Ok so I thought I had it last edit but i didn't realize that I was in HI in both FWD gears and low in RVSE. Scratched my head for half a day checking voltages and connections until I started playing with the shifter. I had ordered a replacement shifter from Hobbymasters bc the original only had a single FWD gear. When I wired the new two speed shifter up according to the diagram I followed it literally, bottom switch wired as bottom switch in diagram etc. Well this turned out to be my problem. Once I switched the wiring so bottom switch in diagram went to top switch and top switch in diagram to bottom switch in PW, all was right with the world!!!! Just in the knick of time too. I'll start up another thread in the Projects section showing the build and the happy recipient.

Thank you in advance for any guidance and if this post needs to be moved to its own thread then I will do so.

Matt
Last edited by C4pt4inMatt on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
#84815
well i seemed to jump the gun on this. i bought all the parts needed to do this then after i ordered saw there was issues. so if i follow the diagram without the lights will i have problems? also is there a upgrade for this controller? a 750w version. the motors i found are about 363W each.
#85867
1st, Read this thread very well. Then look over to the "DPDT relay for breaking" started by Taz to avoid connecting ANYTHING to ANY of the break connectors! If you're not running lights that Taz has another great simple diagram, "Just the Basics" or something like that. All of these are current and should be on the 1st page under this BRPO section. This controller works fine, somewhere along the lines the circuitry change or quality dropped and now you need to avoid the Break Connectors.
Can't speak to the motors, Sorry.
Good Luck, The Smile on your kids face is Well worth the Effort :)
#90229
ok got everything hooked up and turned the key i heard the relays clicking. switch gears relays click. push throttle nothing, after some looking around i found my throttle wires were mixed up. so for anyone with the 3 wire foot pedal make sure the colors match, (red/red) (black/black) (white/blue or green on controller) and that solved my problem!
#90242
Good Deal!
I must have read "throttle wires mixed up" 50 times (me included), too funny.
Hope your little one has a Blast!
#91289
PW Jeep Wrangler.jpg
Almost ready

I just did this mod to an old Brown Jeep Wrangler that I picked up on the side of the road. I used the LBD-14 24v with 2-250w belt drive motors and this jeep moves. I also did the "DPDT relay for ESC disconnect and braking" option for RY1 so I would not have any issues burning up my controller and used the original go pedal by re-mounting over the left some. There was a little belt slip issue at first but I fabricated my own belt tension's with some left over aluminum angle iron and a bolt with some small pex pipe over. I even managed to fit in the seat and ride the jeep around on the driveway. One thing that was a little disappointing and that was the fact that it doesn't have enough torque to make it through thick wet grass without bogging down. I also have some rather large lawnmower front tires on the back and some rubber wagon tires on the front. Now this was with my 45lb 5yr old son. Maybe it wouldn't have been a problem with my 35lb 4yr old daughter but she drove it into the ditch a full speed so she had limited rights to drive over the weekend.
#91293
insomniac42:
It sounds like it's in the shifter and not the controller itself. Did you keep the stock wiring from the shifter back? Maybe you put the connectors on the wrong switch? What kind of vehicle is this anyway? Sorry I didn't see your post till just now.

GunsGranger:
Those wheels look considerably larger than the stock ones. You're probably loosing a lot of torque right there alone, not to mention the added weight. You might consider a gear box/motor with a lower tooth count, a stronger motor or smaller wheels. At some point the Gear Boxes or motors are going to fail as is. Good News is that the ESC should help to slow down the inevitable failure :)
#91295
Hmm...I don't have the original gear box/motor setup so I don't think the lower tooth count will help :? And Smaller wheels doesn't sound like much fun either. I was thinking I should have gone with the 350w motors instead of the 250's. I like the speed that it gets and so do the kids, it just needs more torque.
#91297
Well aren't I the knuckle head, sorry about that :0
Guess I wasn't reading very well at all. Just saw those big old wheels.
#91300
gratefuldad wrote:GunsGranger:
Those wheels look considerably larger than the stock ones. You're probably loosing a lot of torque right there alone, not to mention the added weight. You might consider a gear box/motor with a lower tooth count, a stronger motor or smaller wheels. At some point the Gear Boxes or motors are going to fail as is. Good News is that the ESC should help to slow down the inevitable failure :)


He's already ditched the stock motors and gear boxes and has moved onto belt drive.

If you're sure the belts aren't still slipping, I'd suggest different pulley diameters. A smaller pulley at the axle would give you more torque, but also lower your top speed. Maybe there's a happy medium there somewhere? Could try chain drive too to eliminate all possible slip.

Shawn
#91307
Oh I'm sure they aren't slipping any more. It's very loud when those belts slip and can't be mistaken for anything else. I am also well aware of changing the axle sprocket size but actually I'm sure you meant a smaller sprocket on the rear will decrease torque and increase high end. It's the opposite for the front sprocket.
Here is a little info:
http://www.twowheelmania.com/2011/04/25 ... rformance/
I used to ride dirt bikes a lot growing up and had friends that had go-karts. If you wanted more out of something, I was the one to go to.
#91366
gratefuldad wrote:insomniac42:
It sounds like it's in the shifter and not the controller itself. Did you keep the stock wiring from the shifter back? Maybe you put the connectors on the wrong switch? What kind of vehicle is this anyway? Sorry I didn't see your post till just now.

no stock wiring. it was a fire rescue jeep. i might have to re comb the wiring http://youtu.be/lMB2aulaRls there is the jeep running. i did notice sometimes the wheel with the most amount of traction gets the least amount of power, maybe its the electricity going to the path of least resistance or i may have fried a motor in the snow
#92090
I am going through and ordering all of the parts, and the battery listed is no longer available. I found one that is similar, and wanted to know if it will work. http://www.ebay.com/itm/APC-RBC6-Replacement-Batteries-12V-12ah-SLA-2-RBC-6-/110656939117?pt=US_Uninterruptible_Power_Supplies&hash=item19c3aae46d

Is this one good, or is there another one that is better to use?

There are also 2 different kinds of inline chargers at TNC scooters. a 1.6 Amp and a 3.0 Amp. Which one should I get?

Thanks for the help.
#92130
I like Gruber personally. I have read that the heavier the Battery the better it is. Grubers are the heaviest I have found and are always "Fresh", they go bad if they sit on the shelf too long.
http://www.gruberpower.com/12-volt-12-a ... ah-battery
E-mail this nice Lady and ask for a quote, I have found her shipping to be considerably lower than their web site. Meagan Moore (mo4@gruber.com)

I believe the rule of thumb for charging rate is 30% or less of Battery Amp Hour rating, so the 3 Amp charger should be safe, but more $. Remember these are are Not Smart Chargers, they could "Cook" your Batteries if you leave them on too long!
If you're willing to spend $40+ bucks you might consider going with 2 of the Schumacher Smart Chargers (1 per Batt). You don't have to use the Charger port on the ESC, you can go straight to the Batts.
#93729
hey guys, whats a good motor and gearbox to use, or do you just use the stock ones?
#93730
Most stock set-up do pretty well with the ESC. That's really where the idea came from to get more juice to these cars without fragging the GBs.
Certainly no guarantee though :)
#93734
Stock motors lasted less than 1 day at 24V. Tried a couple sets of the cheap $7 HTI motors with the same results. Finally put Titan 775 motors in last week and they have lasted a couple days now and it finally appears to be reliable for the moment. This is all with heat sinks and fans on each motor as well as holes cut in the motor compartment with two more fans. I'm running my third LBD-14 controller now as well with the modified brake circuit and all appears to FINALLY! be well. Stock gear boxes haven't been an issue yet.

Shawn
#93765
Man AZstang, I'm sorry that you have had so many failures to date. My experience has been considerably better than that. I have melted a Gear Box due to friction heat generated from increased RPMs and 1 motor failure. I have had 4 cars running these ESC set-ups over the past year and a half. I did have one bad LBD-14, but they're not exactly known for they're reliability, but rather their cheap price :)
But like they say here, "Fast - Cheap - Reliable (Pick any Two)"?
#93843
insomniac42 wrote:Well I let my son test his jeep in the snow today. I noticed reverse is full speed and high is low and low is high. Also one wheel spins less in snow going forward (driver side) and it looked like the other spins less in reverse. AnyI ideas



If u are using Kershaw motors I have spoken to Dan himself in emails Great guy btw super nice. Anyway his motors 700-HO rated 18.5v 24500 rpms 363watts 15 advanced timing CCW rotation so one will spin faster then each other depending on how u wired it up. I was going to swap out my titans 775 for them until he emailed me back my answers on the rotation. But they are better then the Titan 775 in speed and a little more torque would have been a nice upgrade and cost was a couple dollars cheaper for Kershaw motors.

Justin
Last edited by Dexter on Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
#93909
gratefuldad wrote:Man AZstang, I'm sorry that you have had so many failures to date. My experience has been considerably better than that. I have melted a Gear Box due to friction heat generated from increased RPMs and 1 motor failure. I have had 4 cars running these ESC set-ups over the past year and a half. I did have one bad LBD-14, but they're not exactly known for they're reliability, but rather their cheap price :)
But like they say here, "Fast - Cheap - Reliable (Pick any Two)"?


Yeah, it's been a battle. Nothing like dumping $300+ into a Fisher Price toy! At least I got the base Jeep for free from the side of the road.

Shawn
#94213
Dexter wrote:
insomniac42 wrote:Well I let my son test his jeep in the snow today. I noticed reverse is full speed and high is low and low is high. Also one wheel spins less in snow going forward (driver side) and it looked like the other spins less in reverse. AnyI ideas



If u are using Kershaw motors I have spoken to Dan himself in emails Great guy btw super nice. Anyway his motors 700-HO rated 18.5v 24500 rpms 363watts 15 advanced timing CCW rotation so one will spin faster then each other depending on how u wired it up. I was going to swap out my titans 775 for them until he emailed me back my answers on the rotation. But they are better then the Titan 775 in speed and a little more torque would have been a nice upgrade and cost was a couple dollars cheaper for Kershaw motors.

Justin




good call i forgot about the timing issue!! ill have to research a lil and maybe i can counter that with a resistor
#94324
Hey all, I have a 5 year old with a Escalade that's asked me to make faster so after much research have found that using a ESC with 24v seems like a logical idea! parts seem cheap enough and with my electronic background I think I can pull it off, I read about that with a variable throttle it will help save from killing gear boxes because of the throttle it will quickly ramp up from zero to full, not just full on like a stock pedal, this thought seem ok on pavement but what about on grass where there's more resistance holding the wheels from spinning?

I was think with install the ESC and see how well that works then try upgrading to a better motor after.

The first part I found was relays, being from Canada the places listed isn't a good source for Canadian shipping so I ordered these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/280701738307?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649

shipping is slow but free
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