[treebeme]

With a lot of help from JParthum, this is a full schematic to accomplish having full H/L, F/R (low speed reverse), Brake, Brake Light, Reverse Light, Headlight and Taillight functionality all switched on and off via a single switch using the LBD-14 Scooter controller. It runs the motor power through heavy duty relays instead of through the stock switches for durability purposes as well as providing the means for a seperate brake pedal. The stock switches are still used to pass power to the relay coils and to turn on the reverse lights and reverse beeper.

As JParthum has pointed out before, this schematic has several advantages over some other setups.

•The Controller's native 'kill' feature is utilized - so not only does the braking Relay disconnect the motors from the Controller, the Controller itself also cuts power to the motors. So in the event that RY1 failed closed and braking ability were lost, the Brake Pedal would still stop power from reaching the motors, even if the throttle is also pressed.

•Even though this may seem like a lot of wiring, connectors can be purchased along with the controller (see Parts List below) to simplify many of the connections. Also, with the exception of the wiring between the batteries and Controller, and between the Controller and Relays/motors (which can typically be placed close together), all of the remaining wiring can be small gauge, and multi-strand cables like Ethernet (CAT5/CAT6) or telephone (CAT3) could be used to make this a cheap, but neat installation.

•Since the controller is the most sophisticated and sensitive component, it's more prone to failure. But, while it may not help with the expense or down-time waiting for a replacement to arrive, utilizing the modular connectors would at least remove frustration by greatly simplifying the process of replacing the controller.

These schematics would also work with other controllers with some modifications depending on the specific model. This setup could easily be used with a 36v controller by adding just a couple more resistors to drop voltage for the lights and relays. Since we are not sending the power to the motor through any of the stock switches you don't have to worry about burning out the shifter or brake (was throttle) switches. The relays in the parts list have been very reliable for me. They are rated to handle 25 amps at 28 volts (not the coil which is 12v) and have handled 36v in one of my vehicles with no problems so far.

As a word of warning, we are using the power leads for the pilot and brake lights to power the relays and lights. I would expect the lights to be LED's or something similar that do not draw a lot of power. I wouldn't suggest running incandescents or other bulbs with high amp draws off of the controller leads. If you did wan't to do something like that, I would use the pilot light to the coil of a seperate relay that would connect a 12v accessory battery to all of your high power drawing items.

The schematic and parts list are based off of what I am actually using in my running vehicles with some tweaks that JParthum came up with as we went back and forth getting the schematic going. If you use different relays than whats on the parts list you might have to use a different sized resistor to achieve the 12v signal needed by the relay coil. The lights listed are all expected to be 12v units so that when they are run in series they can handle the 24v power coming from the controller leads.

The only part that I am guessing on is the resistor size needed to drop the voltage to 12v for the reverse beeper. I am actually using this reverse beeper on a vehicle but I can't remember the resistor I used and it's taped up and hidden in a bottom of a vehicle right now. The 100 ohm resistor in the schematic would probably work for that beeper but I would try testing the ohms on the beeper with a meter first before trying it for real.

Click to animate.

Unlike a stock PW, the brakes are off by default in this schematic. If you would like for the brakes to be applied while the Key Switch is in the OFF position (automatic 'parking brakes'), you can swap five wires - On Relay RY1, switch NO1 with NC1, and NO2 with NC2, then on the Brake Pedal, move the wire from the top pin (NO) to the bottom pin (NC). But be aware that this would also result in the coil on Relay RY1 drawing power (about .25 watts) whenever the Key Switch is ON, and the Brake Pedal is NOT pressed.

If you have trouble locating Double Pole Double Throw (DPDT) Relays, two Single Pole Double Throw (SPDT/5-pin/Bosch style) Relays could be substituted for each DPDT Relay (6 SPDTs to replace the 3 DPDTs shown) - Assuming the SPDT Relays are also 12V, you could omit the resistors shown attached to the coils of RY1 and RY3, and wire the SPDT Relay coils in Series (as the LEDs are wired) in order to drop the Voltage they receive from 24V to 12V. Be aware that the set of two SPDT Relays in Series that replace RY2 would then need to be wired in Parallel (Pos to Pos/Neg to Neg, instead of in Series) with the set of two Relays in Series that replace RY3.

Parts list

1 - 12v Batteries (2-Pack) - http://cgi.ebay.com/APC-UPS-SLA-Replacement-Batteries-RBC6-12v-12ah-/270655462185?pt=PCA_UPS&hash=item3f04529b29

1 - 24V Controller (Model LBD14) Yi-Yun Brand Controller - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101166

1 - Foot Pedal Throttle Cable (Hall Effect) - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101125

1 - 30 Amp DC Circuit Breaker - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101262

1 - 2 Wire Keyswitch - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101227

1 - 12v Pulse Buzzer - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102819

2 - 100 ohm 10W 5% Wirewound Resistor (2-Pack) - http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062293

3 – 12 VDC DPDT 25 AMP RELAY - http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=11-2420&catname=electric

2 - 1.0 ohm 10W 10% Wirewound Resistor (2-Pack) – http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062290

1 - Battery / Motor Connector (2 - Pin) - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=102310

5 – 2 Pin Modular Connector - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=102300

1 - 3 Pin Modular Connector - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=102302

1 – INLINE Charging Port (3 Pin) - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101240

1 - 24 Volt INLINE Charger - http://tncscooters.com/product.php?sku=101130



I found these lights work well hiding behind the stock headlight lenses on a unibody Jeep.

12v LED for Headlights - http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/CLD-4C/CHROME-4-LED-DISPLAY-WHITE//1.html

These also might work behind the stock headlight and taillight lenses on unibody jeeps. I haven't used them yet but they should work. The ones I had used on my vehicles I got on clearance from US-1 Autoparts and I would have no idea where to find them on-line.

12v LED for Taillights/Brake Lights - http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/LS-12-NW/12VDC-LED-LIGHT-STRIP-NEUTRAL-WHITE/1.html

[mikegeo]

I am planning on doing this upgrade.. My only question is with the relays. what is the output voltage to each motor?

[treebeme]

The controller puts out 24v to the motors. When the relays are in "high" gear it's sending the full 24v to the motors. When in "low" (forward or reverse) it is sending 12v to each motor (roughly as the system will send more power to the motor giving the least resistance).

The relays that I have in the parts list (DPDT) are rated at 25 amps at 28 vdc. Since we are using an ESC we probably aren't even coming close to 25 amps but I wouldn't want to use anything rated lower than that.

[mikegeo]

thanks. i am waiting for the rest of the parts to come next week.. doing the switch to 24v motors and gears today. thanks for the help

[mikegeo]

if i wanted to omit all the lights and the reverse beeper.. do you have a diagram for that?


thanks

[jparthum]

Here ya go...

[mikegeo]

thanks for the help

[jparthum]

No problem! I think this will also help others in differentiating the drive-train and accessories circuits, so that it'll be easier to implement any combination of accessories.

[mikegeo]

now i just need to figure out the posts on the existing perego shifter.. and i'll be in business.

[jam1ej20]

Awesome, this is an excellent resource!

Could a twist or half twist throttle be used in-place of the hall effect pedal without any modifications to the diagram?

[treebeme]

Yes, any hall effect throttle (sold for scooters) should work.

Some throttles have more than 3 wires for things like showing battery levels but the three wires used for the actual throttle function should be the same on any of them (though wire colors are sometimes different).

[mikegeo]

ok so i got the relays today. and was starting my plan of attack.. But the post tabs on the relay differ from the pictures.. The tabs are labeled 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, a , and b.
1,3,4,6,7,9 a and b have tabs. the others have just empty slots.. My question is. how to relay the drawing above.. on to the relay

thanks

[treebeme]

Yeah, I should have warned you on that one. The two tabs that are skinnier are for the relay coil. You should be able to visually identify the others. I believe the next two tabs are the the commons follows by the NC and then the NO. But I'll check tonight to verify it for you.

[mikegeo]

i was hoping this was a bit more IDIOT proof.. This is definately not a beer and wire project. LOL. Looking more closely at the picture and the relay. you show 5 tabs on one side. 3 on the other.. the relays actually have 4 on each side. I am more than a little confused. Thanks

[treebeme]

Sorry about that. The relays in the picture are the standards used for schematics. The physical relays often differ in pin placement. Here are the pin names on the schematic.

DPDTrelay.JPG (13.24 KiB) Viewed 35690 times

[treebeme]

And here is the relay in the parts list.

[zugellos]

Here ya go...

jpathum, in this schematic that you revised for mikegeo to omit use of the lights and reverse beeper...is it necessary to hook up the "Brake Signal Connector" to the RY1 relay at all?

Thanks in advance for your response.
BTW, I can't get enough of this forum!
I've been a lurker for a while.

[jparthum]

RY1 provides electro-braking (the same way that factory ride-ons do) and is activated by the Brake Signal circuit. When activated, the motor leads are shorted together which causes very high resistance (both electrical and mechanical). This resistance is 'softened' by the three 1 Ohm resistors (I know it sounds backwards, but in this arrangement the resistors resist resistance ) so that the motors slow more gradually, rather than stopping abruptly, which would be the case if the circuitry remained but the 1 Ohm resistors were omitted.

If mechanical (disc or drum) brakes are being used, then yes, the everything connected to the Brake Signal circuit could be omitted, including RY1 - the Motor Connector could connect directly to RY2 and there would be no electro-braking.

[zugellos]

Got it.
Thanks for the clarification.

[frankieandluca]

WOW! I think i Just fell in love! this is crazy! My wife is gonna divorce me!

[rinowish]

the 3 relays needed...
I just can not justify $10+ in shipping cost for what is inevitably less that a 1 lbs. package... That is redonkulous.
So I am searching and searching for an alternative, and while I have to conceide that Treebeme, you found the cheapest one I can find, those shipping costs almost even it out when it is all out anyways. call me cheap LOL.

So I found a few places that carry the exact same part... like here for example.. No price listed, but I noticed they carry 30 and 35 amp models even though it is the same 275 series and exact part number: 20930-81

What would happen if you used 35A relays instead of 25A relays?

[jam1ej20]

the 3 relays needed...
I just can not justify $10+ in shipping cost for what is inevitably less that a 1 lbs. package... That is redonkulous.
So I am searching and searching for an alternative, and while I have to conceide that Treebeme, you found the cheapest one I can find, those shipping costs almost even it out when it is all out anyways. call me cheap LOL.

So I found a few places that carry the exact same part... like here for example.. No price listed, but I noticed they carry 30 and 35 amp models even though it is the same 275 series and exact part number: 20930-81

What would happen if you used 35A relays instead of 25A relays?

Rino,
I am planning on doing this mod as well. Any chance it would be cheaper to combine shipping for both of us? One of us could order and then mail to the other. Maybe a few others would be interested? I'm not sure what the pricing cutoff is for the shipping price to go up. Just a thought.

Edit: Just checked shipping quotes and we could as many as 15 for just over $12 in shipping. The shipping only goes up very little per 3 after the initial ones. If we could get a few others on board, we could divide shipping costs down to almost nothing and shipping using first class mail and a padded envelope should be sufficient and pretty cost effective, I think. Anyone interested?

[treebeme]

the 3 relays needed...
I just can not justify $10+ in shipping cost for what is inevitably less that a 1 lbs. package... That is redonkulous.
So I am searching and searching for an alternative, and while I have to conceide that Treebeme, you found the cheapest one I can find, those shipping costs almost even it out when it is all out anyways. call me cheap LOL.

So I found a few places that carry the exact same part... like here for example.. No price listed, but I noticed they carry 30 and 35 amp models even though it is the same 275 series and exact part number: 20930-81

What would happen if you used 35A relays instead of 25A relays?

That actually is a 25 amp relay. If you look at the specifications it shows a 35 amp rating if sending through AC power and a 25 amp rating if sending through DC power.

But, if you did find a different relay with a 35 amp rating, that's only better as it can handle even more power through it. It's not drawing that many amps, it just handles that much power flowing through it. The only difference may be the resistance of the coil unit which might require a different sized resistor on the coil connection.

As for the shipping, I tend to order other parts at the same time from that place (axles, chains, sprockets) so the shipping charges become more tolerable.

[jparthum]

Y'all might also try contacting the company directly for a price quote - shipping costs are so dynamic (even when gas prices are stable ) that it's extremely difficult to accurately calculate online - I bet a sales rep would find a way to trim some fat, especially for a new customer who is going to post about their experience in a forum.

[rinowish]

jparthum - So true.

treebeme - You sir.. truly have found the best price for them.. Once I found a good key word to search for this part, I found TONS of the,.. unfortunately, many placed were charging $15-25 for just ONE...

jam1ej20 - I think taking orders for a bulk order is a great idea, and whoever ends up ordering should do as jparthum suggested also for an even better price. I did check out their "Contact Us" page.. they are located in Lincoln, NE and aparently have a brink and mortar that is open to walk-ins, so if anyone lives in lincoln.. hint hint :p
If enough people are interested, I think who ever lives closest to Lincoln should place the order.. Since it calcs by ZIP code, I may have highers costs than anyone in Iowa or boarding state.

but to give an idea, using my shipping costs, here's how the cost per person would break down from 1 person ording 3... or 10 people ordering 30:

Quant.--Shipping$$--Per Person
3---------$10.79-------$10.79
6---------$11.62-------$5.81
9---------$12.10-------$4.03
12--------$12.10-------$3.03
15--------$12.45-------$2.49
18---------$12.85-------$2.14
21---------$13.14-------$1.87
24---------$13.14-------$1.64
27---------$13.55-------$1.50
30---------$13.95-------$1.40

[rinowish]

Looking at their "Contact Us" page, they have an actual brick and Mortar store also. I haven't figured out the logistics of how the money flow would work yet... but sister and brother-in-law live in lincoln. We could try and figure out a way to send him a lump sum from anyone interested and he can just ship them, which would cost less also.

We definitely have some options, but a bulk order looks like the best option regardless...

[jam1ej20]

Looking at their "Contact Us" page, they have an actual brick and Mortar store also. I haven't figured out the logistics of how the money flow would work yet... but sister and brother-in-law live in lincoln. We could try and figure out a way to send him a lump sum from anyone interested and he can just ship them, which would cost less also.

We definitely have some options, but a bulk order looks like the best option regardless...

Put me down for 3.

[netuokad]

Hello Everybody,

Newbie here, i actually got all the stuff needed for a project here, the question i would like to ask you guys is how fast will this power wheels after we install everything and up in running? This a wonderful forum, i cant believe.. i'm hooked!! thanks you guys for making this forum...

[rinowish]

Well, unfortunately, when it comes to the electrical, I am still a bit of a newb even after a year :p

But can tell you that the correct answer to this question is "that depends..."

It depends if you are running stock motor and gearboxes...
If you replaced the motors with some of the HPI 550s (I think thats what a lot of people use) then it will be even faster than stock.
I plan on using some DeWalt 18v drill motors in my Gaucho when I do this. I'll lose some speed, but I take my kids out on the foot trails in the Arizona desert, so there are a lot of hills, and I would rather have the crazy torque.


It depends if you are using stock 14g wire...
Upgrading the wires that hook up directly to the motors to 10g have been said to add about an extra 1 MPH (I just read that in another post recently)

[treebeme]

Hello Everybody,

Newbie here, i actually got all the stuff needed for a project here, the question i would like to ask you guys is how fast will this power wheels after we install everything and up in running? This a wonderful forum, i cant believe.. i'm hooked!! thanks you guys for making this forum...

It depends on the vehicle, motors, gearboxes, etc. The general idea behind an ESC is to allow the vehicle to run at 24v without tearing up gearboxes and to give the vehicle a variable throttle. In theory if you take a 12v PW that goes 5mph and you make it 24v you will go 10mph. With an Esc there are some losses as it modulates power so you will get something more like 9 mph or maybe a little less (assuming the 5mph baseline). However, now that you are spiking power violently you can potentially switch to larger tires or a higher tooth gearbox and get 10+mph out of the deal.

And you still have variables such as the vehicle weight, the childs weight, what kind of gearboxes you are running (#7's vs #3's) and other issues.

[jparthum]

Upgrading the wires that hook up directly to the motors to 10g have been said to add about an extra 1 MPH (I just read that in another post recently)

This may not necessarily apply when using a Scooter Controller, as the controller will limit the current output (in this case, to 30A). But I'm still not clear on whether it does this by limiting Wattage (overall power output), or only Amperage (current) - IE: Allowing the Voltage to increase in order to reach the motors' rated Wattage . A larger wire gauge will allow more Amps/current, but doesn't directly impact Voltage. However, if the total length of wire in the circuitry causes enough resistance to lower it's capabilities below 30A, then larger gauge wire will help.
This is one of the reasons why Scooter Controllers are such a great solution - Even at 6V, with enough physical resistance, the electrical current can spike well above 30A without a current limiting device in place. If adequate circuit protection (fuse/breaker) is in place, then damage to electrical components may be prevented, but gearbox damage may not, depending on the amount of current and the reaction time of the circuit protection device. And of course any fuse or breaker would then need to be replaced or reset, interrupting operation. The current limiting feature of the Scooter Controller actively limits the current, while only interfering with operation to the extent necessary to protect components (IE: slowing instead of stopping).

[frankieandluca]

Does anyone care to share a few pics of how they set this up in their pw?

Thanks

[netuokad]

It depends on the vehicle, motors, gearboxes, etc. The general idea behind an ESC is to allow the vehicle to run at 24v without tearing up gearboxes and to give the vehicle a variable throttle. In theory if you take a 12v PW that goes 5mph and you make it 24v you will go 10mph. With an Esc there are some losses as it modulates power so you will get something more like 9 mph or maybe a little less (assuming the 5mph baseline). However, now that you are spiking power violently you can potentially switch to larger tires or a higher tooth gearbox and get 10+mph out of the deal.

And you still have variables such as the vehicle weight, the childs weight, what kind of gearboxes you are running (#7's vs #3's) and other issues.

Thanks a lot treebeme for the info.. wow! my kids will love the increase in speed.. its amazing!! thanks again i'll post my pics when i'm done!!

[Divinar]

Holy crap! This is beautiful work, guys.

I thought I was a genius when I used a 24v relay on the "indicator" wires to switch on the 12v accessories.

But ..

Having heard the horror stories of the controllers shorting to full throttle, I'm going to stick to my brake circuit design - it uses one 5 pin relay, and is completely independent of the controller.

[jonesee]

I am doing this mod on my national products H2 and it only has forward and reverse(I have upgraded to 2-550 motors though). Do you have a diagram for the relay schematic for this setup? the other question I have is how are the 3-1ohm resistors wired into the relay circuit (a picture would be a huge help). Thanks in advance for any help on this my first post.

John

[jparthum]

I am doing this mod on my national products H2 and it only has forward and reverse(I have upgraded to 2-550 motors though). Do you have a diagram for the relay schematic for this setup? the other question I have is how are the 3-1ohm resistors wired into the relay circuit (a picture would be a huge help). Thanks in advance for any help on this my first post.

John

Are you saying that the existing gear shifter only has Forward and Reverse positions?

The braking resistors are simply connected in Parallel - Make sure they are positioned so that they all have the same polarity (side-by-side, facing the same direction), then just connect all of the leads together on each respective end.

[jonesee]

I am doing this mod on my national products H2 and it only has forward and reverse(I have upgraded to 2-550 motors though). Do you have a diagram for the relay schematic for this setup? the other question I have is how are the 3-1ohm resistors wired into the relay circuit (a picture would be a huge help). Thanks in advance for any help on this my first post.

John

Are you saying that the existing gear shifter only has Forward and Reverse positions?

The braking resistors are simply connected in Parallel - Make sure they are positioned so that they all have the same polarity (side-by-side, facing the same direction), then just connect all of the leads together on each respective end.

Yes, the shifter only has one forward and reverse speed controlled by one 6 pin toggle switch.

Thanks for the clarification on the resistors JP, it makes sense to simply bundle the leads into one crimp connector.

I personally, greatly appreciate the time and effort of your detailed and complete esc upgrade.

John

[frankieandluca]

I just would like to know where and how to mount the relays and controller to make it look clean.....

[jonesee]

John[/quote]Are you saying that the existing gear shifter only has Forward and Reverse positions?

JP- I finally got all the parts and wired according to the PW 2 shift switch schematic and I cannot get it to work. I am thinking it has to do with only having one switch for speed selection and the diagram has 2 switches for the hi/low that I do not have on this truck. I am guessing maybe I dont need one of the relays. Could you assist me in what I need to change to make it work (I am clueless with what makes relays tick) but can follow directions pretty good.

John

[Divinar]

OK, I don't know how your shifter switches work. But I bet that's where the problem is.

When you shift to reverse, do you hear the f/r relay (RY2) click?

You don't need RY3 unless you want to make a separate switch for high/low. (current on = low)

[jonesee]

OK, I don't know how your shifter switches work. But I bet that's where the problem is.

When you shift to reverse, do you hear the f/r relay (RY2) click?

You don't need RY3 unless you want to make a separate switch for high/low. (current on = low)

Thanks for the tips Divinar you actually helped me understand which relay is which.

I actually tracked the problem to the derailluer cable. I ASSumed it was plug and play but after hours of frustration I realized I needed to switch the red and white wires in the clip.

He is up and running now and I also got to see the wife eat crow,after she told me "a 3 year old won't be able to figure out a gas and brake pedal". It only took him about 10 seconds.

John

[jparthum]

I'm not sure what kind of switch is in your shifter, but this should work regardless...

You just need to locate two switch contacts that are open when Forward is selected, and closed when Reverse is selected - it doesn't matter which of those contact each wire connects to. Just keep in mind that full speed (24V) will also be available in Reverse.


EDIT: Oops, didn't see your last reply . Glad you got it going!

[jonesee]

I'm not sure what kind of switch is in your shifter, but this should work regardless...

You just need to locate two switch contacts that are open when Forward is selected, and closed when Reverse is selected - it doesn't matter which of those contact each wire connects to. Just keep in mind that full speed (24V) will also be available in Reverse.


EDIT: Oops, didn't see your last reply . Glad you got it going!

JP, thanks for the diagram, I think I have a problem with my current wiring layout since I just smoked a brand new titan 550 on one battery charge. I pulled the motor and the volt reading to the motors is 25.3, there is no variable volt from the hall effect pedal evidently.

Long story short I started from scratch with the schematic for the single speed forward and reverse you posted and now I cannot get voltage to the motors but I do have the relays switching from the F/R switch circuit. I dont know how to diagnose the source! what could be the problem? and could there be an issue with the pedal that I am not getting variable voltage readings at the motor circuit.

I am pretty nervous about switching wires around since I assumed this truck was going to be the difficult one, but I smoked a controller on my daughters truck trying to figure out why the the F/R switch was backwards.

gotta go, one year old climbing on the steps again!!

John

[jparthum]

Hmmm. If the Relay is switching for FWD/REV, then we know that you have 24V on the controller's Pilot Light Connector, which means that you have adequate power input into the controller, and (at least partial) power output from the controller. I would try bypassing the relays - connecting the motors directly to the controller - in order to either implicate or eliminate the controller as the source of the problem. Remember that the batteries should not be connected to the controller until after all other connections are made. If you get power directly to the motors, then the problem must be isolated to the Relay/wiring. If you still don't get power to the motors, I would leave the Relays bypassed for further troubleshooting.

[treebeme]

I have run stock motors at 24v using this setup with no problems (assuming you don't overload the system by overgearing, taller tires, etc). However, titan 550's draw a lot more power than stock motors, even at 12v, so running them at 24v might end up with smoked motors on a regular basis.

[jparthum]

I've never been clear on whether these controllers limit the total amount of power (Wattage), or only limit Amperage - IE: Allowing Voltage to increase in order to allow a higher Wattage draw with Amperage still restricted . Do you happen to know, treebeme

[treebeme]

A controller, or for that matter a straight battery, cannot force power through anything. They only allow power to be drawn. A controller rated at 500 watts is not saying that it will pump 500 watts of power to the device. What it is saying is that it will allow up to 500 watts of power to be drawn safely without burning up the controller. Even batteries are limited in the amount of power that can be drawn safely without blowing up the batteries. That's why you see different types of batteries for different applications since some can handle higher draw rates than others.

A PWM controller (or even a straight battery) puts out a relatively fixed number of volts, in this case 24v. And the drawing power (amps) of the motor is determined by it's design so it can be considered a constant. Since watts = volts * amps, the wattage does not change for a pwm controller/motor combo no matter what the the throttle position is. If you have a motor with a 2 amp draw rate and you have 24v (controller or straight battery) you have 48 watts of power being drawn.

What changes is the "kilowatt hours" which is basically the actual draw rate, which is determined based on how long that power (wattage) is being drawn from the controller. In other words, the controller is limiting the duration of power being drawn as the throttle position, not the watts being drawn. Under full throttle, the controller allows an almost constant draw of power so that 48 watts example is being drawn continuously. Under partial throttle, the controller allows only an intermittant draw of power as the power is turned on/off every few milliseconds (lower throttle means longer "off" and shorter "on") so that 48 watts is being only drawn part time.

The stock motors have a fairly low amp draw so they have a lot of safety factor built into the design which is why we can overvolt them to 18v, or even 24v, without causing too much stress on the motors. it would take somewhat of a load to stress the components. The titans on the other hand have a higher amp draw yet use similar contruction of the stock motors in terms of cooling fan, commuter size, brush size, etc so it is running closer to the edge in terms of durability. So when you overvolt them to 24v, with or without a controller, they are able to draw many times the watts of the stock motors and burning up.

Now that is not the whole story since the amp draw of the motors will rise when under load so that 48 watts can be much higher than that in real world conditions. If you have heavy kid(s) in the vehicle or towing a large weight or are driving up a hill the draw can jump way up. So you might be able to get away with the titans running 24v if on level ground with a light kid where they are more likely to fail when going up hills and carrying an extra 50lbs.

I believe there are some safety features built into the controllers to limit the throttle pulse, turning the power on for shorter durations which is effectively giving you partial throttle despite you having the pedal pressed the whole way, but as long as the power draw is below the rating of the controller, it won't be enough to save the motors that simply can't handle the wattage from being overvolted.

Now, this is all in theory. The amount

[jonesee]

The stock motors have a fairly low amp draw so they have a lot of safety factor built into the design which is why we can overvolt them to 18v, or even 24v, without causing too much stress on the motors. it would take somewhat of a load to stress the components. The titans on the other hand have a higher amp draw yet use similar contruction of the stock motors in terms of cooling fan, commuter size, brush size, etc so it is running closer to the edge in terms of durability. So when you overvolt them to 24v, with or without a controller, they are able to draw many times the watts of the stock motors and burning up.

Thanks for clearing this up guys!!

It makes sense to me since I ran stock motors for over a month with no signs of burning them up, but could not resist putting the (supposedly) better titans in that were just sitting on the shelf for when the stock ones expired. I have now gone thru 3 titans, maybe the 4th is in critical condition.I do have the titan 775's on hand but am still working on changing the bolt pattern on the GB or retapping the motor can for the smaller mounting hole diameter(any input on which option to go with?).Would I be better off going back to stock 12 volt motors as well as keep the dual motor mod(only came stock with a drivers side 6 volt motor). My son is small (30 lbs) and I have not messed with tire changes.

I am still not clear on the voltage output from the hall effect pedal. I thought I hooked something up wrong because I read max(24-25) volts at the motors at all pedal input levels. I assumed the pedal controlled the speed via variable voltage to the motors. Am I understanding now that the pedal only pulses the voltage to create variable speed control.( It seemed like my son had far better throttle control with the hall effect and esc over stock) but was puzzled at the voltage reading being the same no matter what throttle pedal position I tested the voltage at.

Thanks again guys for all the input, slowly but surely this is clicking in my head now.

John

[Divinar]

The stock motors have a fairly low amp draw so they have a lot of safety factor built into the design which is why we can overvolt them to 18v, or even 24v, without causing too much stress on the motors. it would take somewhat of a load to stress the components. The titans on the other hand have a higher amp draw yet use similar contruction of the stock motors in terms of cooling fan, commuter size, brush size, etc so it is running closer to the edge in terms of durability. So when you overvolt them to 24v, with or without a controller, they are able to draw many times the watts of the stock motors and burning up.

Thanks for clearing this up guys!!

It makes sense to me since I ran stock motors for over a month with no signs of burning them up, but could not resist putting the (supposedly) better titans in that were just sitting on the shelf for when the stock ones expired. I have now gone thru 3 titans, maybe the 4th is in critical condition.I do have the titan 775's on hand but am still working on changing the bolt pattern on the GB or retapping the motor can for the smaller mounting hole diameter(any input on which option to go with?).Would I be better off going back to stock 12 volt motors as well as keep the dual motor mod(only came stock with a drivers side 6 volt motor). My son is small (30 lbs) and I have not messed with tire changes.

I am still not clear on the voltage output from the hall effect pedal. I thought I hooked something up wrong because I read max(24-25) volts at the motors at all pedal input levels. I assumed the pedal controlled the speed via variable voltage to the motors. Am I understanding now that the pedal only pulses the voltage to create variable speed control.( It seemed like my son had far better throttle control with the hall effect and esc over stock) but was puzzled at the voltage reading being the same no matter what throttle pedal position I tested the voltage at.

Thanks again guys for all the input, slowly but surely this is clicking in my head now.

John

The Powerwheels gearboxes already have the mounting holes for the 700 series motors... I don't know much about the H2 parts...

When I used my fancy digital voltmeter, I'll see 24v all the time.
If I used my cheap analog one, it showed "varying" voltage. (24v for 1 60/second, 0 for 5/60 of a second, averages on the analog scale as 4 volts)

[jparthum]

A controller, or for that matter a straight battery, cannot force power through anything...

Thanks tree. I was omitting the (now obvious, in retrospect ) fact that the Voltage cannot increase above what the power source provides ...as well as another obvious factor - the controller has other (accessory) outputs that need to stay at a fixed Voltage .

I was thinking in broader terms (IE: over-volted controller), but again, the Voltage could not be increased above the input Voltage, and even decreasing Voltage would be pointless and counter-productive (hence the low Voltage cut-off feature).

So effectively, Wattage is not a direct concern of the controller at all - Voltage is definitively 'fixed' by the power source, and Amperage is artificially limited by the controller, so the combination of those two limitations, inherently creates a Wattage limitation.