Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
HobbyMasters M.L. Toys
Gruber
KidsWheels
Electronic Scooter Controllers have become a popular addition to our vehicles. Ask specific questions about ESCs here!

***WARNING*** this section is for ADVANCED MODDERS. if you try anything in this section you NEED to expect minor issues with the build up to and including complete FAILURE of EVERYTHING in your freshly built BPRO.

Have fun ;-) :-)
User avatar
By taz11
#53589
Treebeme put together a great writeup on installing an LBD14 ESC.

Since then I have recieved many requests on how to do it without rewireing the entire zip code! :P :lol:

There is a fair amount of work involved in his method and some members are somewhat intimidated by all the "extras"

Here is my version.....

This will work safely as long as the ESC you choose has an output of 30 amps or less (most do).

The DPDT relay is not required to make it run....but in the name of safety, I will not build a car without it. ESCs HAVE failed at wide open throttle.

Required parts
1) ESC
2) Throttle (hall effect)
3) DPDT relay (or two SPDT relays)
4) Extra wire


The stock (single 12v only) harness can be reused from the "go" pedal back. The pedal becomes the brake in the new system.
simple ESC.jpg
simple ESC.jpg (47.12 KiB) Viewed 10939 times
If needed, the factory lockout screw can be installed to limit it to stock 12volt speed.

KEEP IN MIND.....This will work just fine electricly...It does not mean that you will not melt gearboxes!

I have found that Pegs with 700 motors and metal frame jeeps work good right out of the box. Others depend on driving conditions.
Last edited by taz11 on Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:38 am, edited 3 times in total.


#53590
Thanks for posting this Taz! I had a question about the relay...does it matter what is hooked up to each relay port? Or can you just hook it up any which way?
User avatar
By taz11
#53593
Yes! Very important. Most relays have a diagram on them.
#53597
Ok...thank you
User avatar
By taz11
#53658
bricklayer99 wrote:The stock go pedal won't last long without a relay, it arcs in the nc position if the throttle is on and the brake pedal gets pushed
Sorry, you lost me?
#53662
bricklayer99 wrote:The stock go pedal won't last long without a relay, it arcs in the nc position if the throttle is on and the brake pedal gets pushed
His drawing is showing relays for braking and the foot pedal switch shown is a low current trigger.
I wire mine just like this, but I use two SPDT relays instead of one DPDT relay. Only because that's what I have. It's the same and works fine.
Last edited by 12vwiz on Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#53665
right on. just personal experience. I was saying that using the pedal as the direct switch between power and braking without a relay failed in my circumstance. without using the esc brake wires, which disconnect controller output that the switch will burn up if the throttle is still applied during braking, i.e. my kid would use the brake pedal to slow down or stop(not knowing any better) and would release the brakes with the throttle still applied, it made a cool burnout, but toasted the switch
User avatar
By taz11
#53673
Ah got ya. I did not include it in the diagram to keep it simple.....I also power a SPST relay with the same pedal( in parallel with the DPDT). That relay operates the brake circuit in the ESC.
#54215
Will a 24v esc work with only 18v ?
If you already have the battery set up but you want esc for the twist throttle. (no extra speed needed)
#54517
Hey Taz...just ordered my LBD14 and hall effect pedal....I'm curious about the relay in your diagram...I can't honestly tell what is going on in the drawing....what is hooked up to what? I'm wanting to get this right when I finally get my shipment in....also..any suggestions for where to get the relay or did you use the one from Treebme's listing?

thank you
#54525
coulter's wrote:Will a 24v esc work with only 18v ?
If you already have the battery set up but you want esc for the twist throttle. (no extra speed needed)
No.
Most ESC's have a low voltage cut off - usually about 2 volts below full.
User avatar
By taz11
#54527
siten0308 wrote:Sorry everyone, hope this can get answered, but what is ESC? and the brake resister on the DPDT or 2 SDPT? and what is f/r?
sorry i am bad at acronyms :(
ESC - Electronic Speed Controller
DPDT - double pole, double throw
SPDT - Single pole, double throw
F/R - Forward/Reverse
User avatar
By taz11
#54528
madmaxdecals wrote:Hey Taz...just ordered my LBD14 and hall effect pedal....I'm curious about the relay in your diagram...I can't honestly tell what is going on in the drawing....what is hooked up to what? I'm wanting to get this right when I finally get my shipment in....also..any suggestions for where to get the relay or did you use the one from Treebme's listing?

thank you
I see Divinar got the next one...so your up max! :lol:

I believe it is the same. I get them from surpluscenter.com. When you have it in front of you, I will explain it. It will make more sense to you then.

They actually have a clear case so you can see them working.....it will help you visualize it.
Last edited by taz11 on Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#54538
taz11 wrote:
madmaxdecals wrote:Hey Taz...just ordered my LBD14 and hall effect pedal....I'm curious about the relay in your diagram...I can't honestly tell what is going on in the drawing....what is hooked up to what? I'm wanting to get this right when I finally get my shipment in....also..any suggestions for where to get the relay or did you use the one from Treebme's listing?

thank you
I see Divinar got the next one...so your up max! :lol:

I believe it is the same. I get them from surpluscenter.com. When you have it in front of you, I will explain it. It will make more sense to you then.

They actually have a clear case so you can see them working.....it will help you visualize it.
Sounds good Taz...I ordered them today. And guess what else showed up today...my Banebot motors :shock: ...and you know what that means...Shim Time!!!..haha
#55261
You know what time it is Taz...I got the relay...I'm ready for your wisdom to be placed upon me....:)
User avatar
By taz11
#55269
Ok.... The two pins that are smaller than the rest, Most likely labeled "A" and "B", operate the relay. One goes to ground and one gets 12volts from brake pedal switch (when pedal is pressed).


The next two (7&9) are Pos and Neg out to the shifter/ motors.

The next two (4&6) get a resistor between them for the brake. About .01 ohms to .05 ohms 5 watt. You can use a plain wire as a jumper but this makes the braking harsh.

The last two (1&3) are Pos and Neg to the motor connector on the ESC.

Keep one side all Neg and the other all Pos.

You can look through the case and see it work. The wires are connected at rest. When the pedal is pressed the contacts move, disconnecting the controller and connecting the motors to the resistor for braking.
#55274
As always Taz....thank you for explaining that for me....I think I owe you like a 24 pack at this point :shock: :D
#59158
OK, I think I'm getting closer. I posted over the weekend looking for help finding the correct diagrams for my controller (need help getting started) and hadn't seen a response. I get it, everything one might need is in here already, finding the latest version with all of the brainstorming is getting to be a chore. So anyway what I was wondering is can I "merge" this "essentials" diagram from Taz and the Relay controlled 24v Series / Parallel charging diagram from Divinar/12vwz (July 2011?) to get what I'm looking for? Key control for simple 12v charging, Brakes, ESC and 24v? Another charging option for charging might be to use one of the 4-pole trailer harnesses (can't seem to find that one now from JPartham). I'm hoping to order the electronics this week as the twins B-day party is only 4 weeks out.
As to motors I am going to go with the BaneBot 700 series that Taz has been reviewing. Shoot! Just realized that i'll need a 12v tap for motor cooling fans :?
User avatar
By taz11
#59159
12v tap is easy.......Just run your accessory off of pos and neg of one battery.

I'd have to go back and check Div/Wiz diagram to say for sure on the charging system.

I personally prefer to pick up a 24v charger and port when I buy my controller. They are inexpensive and very simple to use. There are connectors on most controllers for a charging port.


Got a link to that charging topic?
Last edited by taz11 on Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
#59168
Man, thanks for the quick responce! Caught me on the road today. I'll get my stuff together as soon as I get home.
#59289
Caught me with my pants down this morning! I was trying to send out another feeler for help with getting this thing going so posted before a long road day. Big picture here, sooo much information and I tend to get lost among the distractions (our children!). I get caught up in trying to find the latest revision and the "back and forth" of you guys brainstorming a solution :)
Anyway saw this post (might should have been titled ESC's for the thick of skull :D ) I would love to do just what you said with the 12v tap for the fans and get the 24v charger to keep it simple, you know. I wanted to see if the controller (pic below) I have and charger (link below) will be appropriate?

Charger:

This doesn't seem to be a "Smart Charger" like the two Shumachers(sp) I have already, just a simple compatible 24v/2am. What do you do? Place it on a timer to prevent Fires? I have the "Electrical Outlet Charging" set-up (under the Electrical forum, I think you chimed in on this awhile back) and was hoping to use this Grandma Friendly set-up for this Grave Digger project but I can't seem to find a way to make it Idiot proof from the diagrams I have been able to find.

This is my controller salvaged from a 24v/500w Schwinn scooter:
http://www.electricscooterparts.com/hoo ... -SD500.htm
I have identified all but one of the wire leads, a single red one? Will this one work? From the best I can tell from all the reading I have done it should. I take it from this thread that Reverse (not on this controller) and breaks should be good to go without concern for a "Burning 24v Runaway 3 year old!". I know! 24v at 3 years old is discouraged here, but this kid can hit our gate opening on and angle at 5mph in a Grave Digger (that I can't barely push through the gate) and that was 6 months ago! So I'm not worried at all.

I had considered the advantage of having a key to Lock-Out the vehicle and insure all electrical draws where dead, I just don't know if I want to muddy the waters too much. Actually on that subject of battery draws, how would I wire the fans for cooling the BaneBot 700's motors so they wouldn't draw while not in use? The Relay we use for this, it's triggered with 12v and can handle 28v+ at the "other ends" like all of the other threads reference right?

On the Series/Parallel Relay Charging set-up, this is what I was reading up on for our 18v (3ea-6v) Gator. I wanted to make it "idiot-proof" per the Elec. Outlet Charging post (referenced above) given I have spent a nice chunk of change on it already between 2 chargers, wire, boxes, outlets and plugs. I cannot seem to find the thread to save my life! but let me see if this image file will upload.:
Nope, D__m! I'll keep looking and buy some extra relays while I'm ordering the rest of this stuff.

Thank you for helping me weed through all of this information, such a wealth of it just not sure how to organize it all ;) BTW, there is another guy asking to do the same thing now under this ESC subject, I'll tel him to look here!
User avatar
By taz11
#59346
That is basicly the same charger I use. I use the other charging connector...the 3 pin with the threaded lock ring (I forget what they call it).

I've never used that particular controller. The red wire is related to charging....I'm unsure if it is used for the charger or just to disable the throttle during charging.

The controllers I've used have had pos and neg charging leads through the controller.
#59353
I see now in the TNC spec. sheet that this odd red wire is identified as an "optional" charge inhibitor? I wonder if this is what bricklayer is referring to as "power lock connection"?
Here is a pic of the how it was wired in the scooter:
scooter charge set-up.jpg
scooter charge set-up.jpg (112.79 KiB) Viewed 10488 times
Any thoughts on switching the 12v power feeding the cooling fans? Wonder if I could place an ignition switch (12v or 24v rated) where the scooter originally had a simple on/of rocker type switch which I believe triggered this "charge inhibitor / power lock connection"?

Will the stock Grave Digger #7-15T motors hold up under this as is for a little while? I was thinking that one HAD to upgrade motors with this ESC upgrade and it seems that the farther I read on this subject the stock ones might be better for right now. Can I save it for Phase II better motors and a 17T upgrade? And use the fans to help out the stock motors.
Thanks Again
#59355
I am doing the same thing as you with my GD...I am using the 700 series banebots, heat sinks, cooling fans and will be upgrading to 19t Gearboxes. I haven't started yet, but I have all the parts....the scooter controller and Hall effect throttle, relay and such....I will start posting in the projects page once I get started
#59356
The charge inhibitor wire prohibits the controller from outputting voltage while the charger is connected.
The rocker switch is rated for 30A, it its easier just to leave that than finding a high amp rating keyed switch.
Keep the motors cool and they should last awhile
#59359
Talk about dueling banjos:)
Sounds like other that figuring out how to control the cooling fans I am close enough to getting my parts list together and place an order.
Thank You guys for sharing your time and knowledge.
User avatar
By taz11
#59367
You most likely will not need fans for the BB motors.

I have not tried stock 550s with a controller yet. I know that the stock Gaucho 700s are fine with a controller.
Treebeme has used 550s with good results....but his land is all FLAT!


The other area you will need to watch is the shaft for the first gear in the GB. They like to melt. Ok for light use, not as good for abuse. I added bearings to mine. I'm also thinking that using a 7R gearbox may solve that (untested). They use a smaller shaft that should reduce friction and heat buildup. You can cross that bridge after you kill one ;) :lol:
Last edited by taz11 on Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
#59375
I saw that one from you on adding the bearings, very creative, very. I will look at that one again. I have two sets of GD-GB & Motors to play with for now at least. I am keeping an eye out for the 17T (possibly 19T?) gear box to go with the BB motors, but that is another line of research. I was hoping to order up what I needed to get the ESC going before the twins B-Day party so I'll need to order soon. Then I can dig into the motor GB with more detail.

Got a set of Gator GBs and motors and a Big A__ custom beach wagon that I am hoping to play with like you did yours as well, so there is an alternate motive for getting a handle on a simple ESC for this Beach Season!
#59379
With leaving the 30a rocker switch connected does it kill all of the power running through the vehicle while in "Charge Mode? So if I tap one of the 12v batteries to run the cooling fans they loose power with the throw of this switch? Does this act like a relay to isolate the vehicle electronics and onlt send power from the charger directly to the batteries? Is it that simple?
#59383
I forgot to add that you will need to get the pinions for the banebots if you order them
#59449
The charger wires are connected directly to the batteries independent of the rocker switch position (i.e. the batteries get charged whether or not the rocker switch is in the ON or OFF position). That is why there is a charge inhibitor wire to disable the controller when the rocker switch is in the ON position.

The rocker switch acts like the ignition switch disconnecting the positive (+) lead from the 24V battery pack to the controller.

By the way, in looking at the picture, it appears you got the wrong S-connector on the wire harness connected to the controller based on the color of the wire (black should be connected to black and red connected to red).
Last edited by DennisDaMenace on Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
#59464
I understand better now, thanks. I was hoping to find a way to switch the cooling fans on and off and this switch is right there. I'll keep looking.
Got the red/black swap :)
#62329
The other area you will need to watch is the shaft for the first gear in the GB. They like to melt. Ok for light use, not as good for abuse. I added bearings to mine. I'm also thinking that using a 7R gearbox may solve that (untested). They use a smaller shaft that should reduce friction and heat buildup. You can cross that bridge after you kill one ;) :lol:
From my experience stock motors with 16T have a limited lifespan and even the titan 775's got so hot that the motor lead tab became brittle and broke off in the motor can. The banebot motors that have been recommended are the best motors I have used at 24 volts (I have a nice collection of titan and hpi 550's that died in less than a month @ 24volts) FYI you will not only need pinion gears with 5 mm shafts but you will need to grind a flat spot into the shaft for the set screw. I am so glad Taz posted his fix for the shim issue needed due to the short shaft , worked sweet!!!

The next major problem was the first gear shaft melting the gear and housing! not even the 7R's smaller diameter shaft lasted more than 2 charges before melting the shaft out the side of the housing. I went to ACE for the nylon bushings mentioned in the bearing upgrade post and also found these bronze sleeves(hollow tube that might dissipate heat way better than a solid steel heat absorbing pin, I thought to myself) that are exactly the same size as the first gear pin. I have decided to do a performance test to see which one lasts longer

In the drivers side GB is the bearing upgrade option and on the passenger GB I simply replaced the gear pin with the bronze sleeve and both have been going strong for 2 months of almost daily riding by my 2 racers.
User avatar
By taz11
#62345
Hollow pin with the air passing through the center .......? Great Idea! Looking forward to long term results!
#62354
I have a question. With this diagram should there or could there be anything drawing power while the vehicle is parked. I had been doing fine last weekend and then charged it overnight on Tues. unplugged wed AM and it has sat untouched till this afternoon where it was dead, just went 10' slowly. I have it charging now and was wondering where I need to start looking for this draw?
#62381
Hollow pin with the air passing through the center .......? Great Idea! Looking forward to long term results!
Yes, a hollow pin. Still going strong after a hard day at the park climbing a tall grassy dirt mound. Unfortunately I will need to do this mod on my daughters princess toyota FJ cruiser as well.
#62530
I drew up how it is actually wired in the Grave Digger. It ran great for several days without the "Remote Kill " Switch installation. That's when I noticed that on a full charge and no use for 2 days or so the batts where dead. i have since recharged and in just over a day they are very low again :( So I mapped out what I had done and here it is. Something is bleeding these Batts dead. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am going to post this on my GD Build thread also.
TAZ ESC May 14.png
TAZ ESC May 14.png (96.6 KiB) Viewed 10290 times
Forgot to mention, the controller I used was salvaged from an old Scooter. It shuts down when inactive for 5 minutes. It it safe to assume that one of the Relays is wired to draw power when it shouldn't? I have seen the NC / NO comments in other threads, but am completely clueless on what this means or better how to implement it :oops:
User avatar
By taz11
#62533
I would guess that the kill box is draining it. It needs to be switched.
#86579
Mr. Taz, Question for Ya.
Are the shifter/switch connections the same on a Gaucho as the typical PW? I guess I never really took the time to compare the stock configuration compared to your lay-out. Or do I just copy the original Gaucho wiring at the switches? If you answer I'll get to digging further on here, it's a good learning exercise right?
Thanks
User avatar
By taz11
#86623
Yes, they are basicly the same. I usually use the stock harness(as long as its in good shape) and splice into it at the pedal switch location.
#86873
I have a question. I have changed my sons 12v quad to 24v and I am adding ESC I pray I dont' fry it.... I read so many wiring diagrams and my head is spinning..... I am using a LBD14 ESC with 2 Duratax 550 motors and I will be using the go pedal as a brake and add a twist throttle. I want to know if I should use #10 wire on all connections or just the wires going to the motors? Also I got a twist throttle but it has 4 leads. How do I wire that to the ESC? I am guessing 3 are the usual to the controller and one is for the power lights?
User avatar
By taz11
#86894
Is there a battery indicator on your twist throttle? That is most likely the 4th wire. Not sure how to hook that up to a LBD14. The 3 wires (black, red, and (blue,green,or white) are the ones that make it go.

The LBD14 is rated at 30 amps so there is no need to upgrade the stock wires. Sometimes this hurts the power output of the motors under heavy loads....but that's how it protects the motors.
#86956
Yes, the throttle has a battery indicator light. If I want to run fans that come on with the motors, is there an output from the controller that could be used? You wouldn't use #10 wires to the motors and to the brake pedal? Because #10 wire is rated for 30 amps and #12 is only good for 20amps.
User avatar
By taz11
#86960
Actually, 12 gauge wire will carry 100 amps up to 3 feet.

Here are a few charts. viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5973
#96132
12vwiz wrote:
bricklayer99 wrote:The stock go pedal won't last long without a relay, it arcs in the nc position if the throttle is on and the brake pedal gets pushed
His drawing is showing relays for braking and the foot pedal switch shown is a low current trigger.
I wire mine just like this, but I use two SPDT relays instead of one DPDT relay. Only because that's what I have. It's the same and works fine.
Can you show us your diagram for this 12v Wiz? Specifically for the kid trax corvette, which as you know is similar to the firetruck you have. Thanks.
#103569
Sorry to sound like and idiot bit how do I wire this same setup but with two spdt relays instead of a dpdt relay .. thanks in advance! This is going into a 36v peg Polaris sportsmen 850.. also my controler is rated at 24v-60v with an output of 30-100amps what amperage relay should I use?

Professional writing or essay service which needs […]

I’m looking for the 88-98 body style Chevrol[…]

The best easiest upgrade to add both durability an[…]

Hello, Unfortunately I know less today about my[…]

HobbyMasters Udemy Course