Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
Gruber
HobbyMasters
M.L. Toys
KidsWheels
HobbyMasters M.L. Toys
Gruber
KidsWheels
for smaller 6v vehicles that NEED to be upgraded to 12v.
#145099
There is a local place with the 6V red power wheels batteries for $5 each, unused, also bought a bad 12V for the connector.

anyway i got everything put together and it feels like it has more power/torque than with a regular 12v, so that leads to my main question about the Breakers built into the battery.

When ran in series, does that mean it has to hit 60 amps for the breaker to trip? (correct me if they are not 30 Amp)

i feel like i should run a 30 amp inline fuse, but i am not sure.

i have seen on the forum of this being done without installing a separate fuse, but i cant find anything specific to my question, i just don't want anything that's not going to be safe.

The F150 we have continuously flips the breaker whenever going up a small hill or hump, with the original battery. so far this hasn't.

Just want to play it safe, sorry if this question has already been answered.
#145100
i would also like to add, on the 6V quick charger i have, it charges at 2.5Amp. does that mean i can charge this at 5 amps safely, since its two batteries, which charged separately at 2.5?

Sorry i know how it works with regular batteries, but im just not sure with these sealed lead acid batteries with the build in fuses...
#145102
Since you made mention that you saved a 12V plug socket from a battery, I'm guessing you're planning to make some level of harness. I'll apologize early for not directly answering your question, but work with me here....

The red 6's will have a breaker built in, but I'm not 100% on the amperage. I'm thinking it's 20 or 25 app??? Not certain.

But if you have a local dealer selling them that cheap, STOCK UP!

Since you are making a harness (my assumption), there's certainly no harm in adding an inline fuse, and running around 12V, 30 amp fuse or breaker is the norm (except the hurricane 40amp). I'd suggest since its a first for you, start with a fuse, and after a few "charge cycles" of use to the batteries, then switch to a breaker.
Depending upon how you "plan-to" charge your battery, you may consider permanently mounting a 30amp breaker (with the mounting tab ears for screws) with the 12V plug attached. That would ensure you have some level of coverage, NO MATTER WHAT. Then you have any options for voltage and or amperage. You can do straight 6V and disappoint the kids with speed, but astound them with drive time, (parallel) connecting all + to + and - to -, or do standard speed with a reduced drive time by connecting 2 red 6's black plug wire to - (black) then that batteries + (white) to the other batteries - (black) and that batteries + (white) to the breaker, then the white battery wire (Series). I say reduced drive time because I believe that the 6V battery has a tad less than half the 12V batteries amp hour rating. And when doing parallel, you have 6V, but double amp hour. Series gains voltage, but not amperage. Voltage is speed, amperage is duration/drive time.
YOU could also do the speed boost, when you have 3 red 6's, doing black - on car to black, that battery white to another battery black, that battery white to another battery black, that white to the mounted breaker to the cars white wire. That's 18V, but keeping in mind that you will "use the juice" faster, as you have to run to keep up with the kids, so it's a blast (the speed) but since it's a sprint, it's not long lived, so don't head out to your local library, as it won't have a tremendous drive time.

I'm certainly not knocking the red 6's, and at that price, load up, their handy!!!

With unfused aftermarket batteries, usually 12V 12ah seems to be the norm, due to size.

Factory grey power wheels batteries are 12V 9.5ah

AND I apologize for the confusion, but I finally got out to the garage and looked at the red 6's and their 6V 9.5ah, so there's NO REDUCED drive time!

The glory of not soldering them together is the ability to alter the voltage as you see fit, and ease of charging, as well as diagnosis in the future. If you develop a bad cell, you can keep that battery aside, as well as with charging. For that, I'll simply refer to a novel I'd written in another post, about an excellent brand of charger that's readily available at Walmart or Amazon. And there's more info about batteries there too! But I simply LOVE the fact that you are going through this with the APPROPRIATE batteries, that are small, light weight, and sealed! I've been having quack-a-lackin contests for the last few days with imbeciles that insist that a car battery is "just fine" although there's no comparison due to the off gassing created by car battery charge/discharge (which the gas is combustible), weight (the tip factor involved with these toys are incredible and a car battery "could" break a child's limb (or is more likely than the batteries you are using)), and a car battery "tends to be" more likely to "spill" acid! So I commend you for your interest in keeping your children safe!

But 2 of the linked to chargers will reduce the recharge time, and with a few of the $5 batteries, you could almost keep the kids driving ALL summer non stop! And you saved on the batteries, so don't skimp on a charger, it's worth it in the long run, as it's a non-proprietary unit.
#145107
I appreciate you taking the time to respond, and yea i agree, a non sealed lead acid battery is a terrible idea, i have seen them leak from quick discharging/overcharging before and kids+acid= a bad day, let alone most of them are in a sealed area so the gassing wouldn't really be able to escape. we both know the motors produce a spark sometimes when running( i have seen it for sure). But yea i will be picking up quite a few of the batteries, most of the cars i have seem to have the ability to fit a 3rd battery in there. since two 6v is identical to the power wheels 12 volt in size and capacity. i figured it beat the normal price for the 12 Volts , and a 12Ah SLA is $26 from what i can find.

Ill check out the link you posted, thanks for that.

i have actually been reading from this forum for quite some time, i got a couple of those "pallet returns" new in box cars for $60-$80 ( dune racer, then two Yamaha Raptors). its kind of hard turning them down at that price for new. unfortunately i paid full price for the F150.

Throw in a few extra 12V batteries( the 2 6v) for $10 each, and they can ride all day. along with any other of the kids in the neighborhood.

Just for a random Reference, i think the worst one is the F150. it looks great, but is all plastic, and weighs a ton! the others have a metal frame/steering. and it just cant handle my 80lb child in it at all, it flips the breaker going over the smallest hump (so small you wouldn't even see it unless you REALLY looked) and he has to wait several minutes to ride again, forget adding another child (still under the weight limit) it cuts off 2-3 seconds after hitting the gas. on that one i was considering a 12V20ah/20hr Battery since it's battery compartment is huge, i'm just worried it will end up blowing fuse after fuse (unless i added the inline breaker instead of fuse) but still doesn't seem normal to do that. if it comes down to it i guess i can rewire it with heavier gauge wire, and add a higher rated fuse, and hope the switches can handle it. ( i have several extra motors just in case for that one, i have already had to replace the passenger side one, under a month old!)

These Yamaha's whenever my son gets on them, even together it doesn't struggle and climbs hills. they have a 40A interchangeable fuse in the battery. I have actually rode the yamaha no problem, so this really makes me think something is wrong with the F150, unless the 130lbs they mentioned includes the weight of the vehicle. id say it weights a good 60-80 pounds in itself.


Sorry for the rambling, just figured i'd throw out there where i stand with all this in case you or anyone may have any idea's. I have really thrown the idea around of 18V on the truck also, i assume in low it will run about 4mph, and in high probably 6-7mph, but have more "torque" to move it around with, it has the 7R gearboxes with a 17 tooth motor. which from what i read is pretty good.
#145110
I'm not familiar with the pallet return thing whatsoever, but would like to hear about it.... but I can say there must be something wrong with that F150, I can hop on just about anything we have, and with no issues cruise all over grass, bumps, and typical grade elevation back from the road. I'm 200 lbs, and am mostly on quads or a Harley, but fit most comfortably on the brute force. Your F150, sounds a lot like my experience with the Hurricane, weighing in the 80lb range, but that one has a slightly different battery plug, missing one slide groove, because that battery has a 40 amp breaker built in. But if you are using the same batteries for the f150 and the others, I'd suggest looking into wheel binding, poor connections in the pedal and shifter, and also at the gearboxes.
Connections is easy, pull out the pedal and shifter, and use a little Flathead screwdriver and ensure the female spades in the molex connector are fully seated. Hopefully that's it, but highly unlikely.
With the ride "jacked up" on a 5 gallon bucket or something, confirm the front wheels will spin freely, probably will, and then check the rears, where you find them "locked".
The rear axle could be too tight squeezing the wheels, the axle could be bent (7/16 or so rod isn't flat when rolled on a true flat surface from a tub-o-lard like me sitting in it), the gearbox is unable to wiggle, or the motor screws are too tight? But if the same batteries work fine with one ride, and not the f150, the 150 is the issue! Do you know if that is a Raptor? I've never had my hands on one, the sellers have always screwed me, but I've seen just about every other bpro in production at this point, just haven't gotten fully into all of them yet. But over tightened motor screws will certainly be a pain in the rear, until found!
As you mentioned the built in battery breaker certainly can weaken, and unfortunately will degrade with each trip, so try your best to not compromise too many batteries, that's where an aftermarket battery and fuse comes in real handy!
HOPEFULLY you have hubcaps (if you will) over the push-nuts, so you can just get replacement ones from the local ace hardware store, but do look at the fronts and connections too, and depending on how the "rim" fits around the axle, usually I try to use a retainer with a set screw, instead of the "one time use" push nuts. I'll try and keep the retainer on the passengers side, on rides I've completely gone through, that's a reminder to myself. Home Depot doesn't have the set screw retainer, (minds not working yet, drawing a blank on the proper name), but MA & PA places have them. I'm not sure about Menard's, I avoid that one.
And again, thanks for being aware that safety first. I really do hate that battery argument!
#145112
The pallet return i mentioned is basically store returns, displays, walmart.com overstock etc. there are several local sellers who buy them by the truckload and sell them on a pallet for $150-$200, or you can purchase them individually for what was mentioned. the only difference with the batteries being switched is the time it takes to reset the breaker to ride again. with the motors, should the screws be snug, or slightly loose? it did this since it was new. it has those push through pins (kind of like a pin that holds your trailer pin in place i forget what they are called) so its easy to remove and reinstall. the gearboxes move easily, and the wheels seem to spin freely ( as much as i can tell with the motors installed) i would actually go with the axle is tight, since it took quite a bit of working to get it on there, almost as the axle was 1/2 inch to short. all the things are in the proper places and aligned, but there is definitely no play in the axle. its just the regular blue one from walmart, i would have loved to get the hurricane or raptor, but they had a higher price tag. i will double check the axle and see if its causing any of this, is there to be some sort of play, or 100% snug? i know for a fact its 100% snug, it would be nice to know how long it needs to be so i can measure it, i couldn't image them sending one that was shorter than needed.
#145113
Ah, gotchya on the pallet return.

Sounds a lot like the Hurricane, with axle pins.
That's a nice thing to have!

The motor screws, I'll say snug, not good'n'tight if ya know what I mean? No clue on a torque setting.

But since it's pins, and you have to pull out the axle to access the screws, check the flatness of the rod, figure if it's bent, it'll be shorter in a sense. I'd say on average there's probably something like 5/16" of "slop" in the rear? You can definitely see a lot of play when you pull one rear wheel, then go around to the other side! On the push-nut style. I can't remember what it is like on the Hurricane, and still being winter/mucky spring so it's packed away at the bottom of the pile. I was horribly disappointed with the Hurricane last spring, when I grabbed one thinking it'd be truly amazing. Ya, it's OK on flat grass, but we went out for the mud, with 18V, 12ah, we seemed to blow a 30 amp fuse seemingly every 100 feet, and maybe made it 8 blocks round trip before the batteries were dead. Major disappointment! Then these guys here informed me of the 40 amp, and that's when I started using the permanent mount breakers. It's just something that makes not having to find the right wire or fuse a non issue. I still have most everything packed up, otherwise I'd try to get you Napa part numbers. Like on other rides I have a fuse block, so I can easily add lights, fans, and "stuff". Again, just making it easier in the future.
#145114
yea there is absolutely no slop on the rear, its so tight it pretty much seems like the pins bent a little bit. ill check that out and see if i did something wrong, it was my first venture in power wheels, hopefully i didn't put the wrong wheels on there( im very certain i didnt). so you think the stock wiring will handle the bigger fuse? or should i stick with the 30 amp for the regular f150? it sounds identical to what you explained. and that was my initial thought, throw the 12V/20ah in there and a good inline fuse/ or breaker, it definitely isn't fun for my son, and its very disappointing. thats why i bought the others, and when i bought the yamaha(one) it worked so well i bought a second so they could actually just play instead of sitting there waiting for the internal breaker to come back on.

so ill probably go the route you mentioned, the 20amp battery is only $35(the 9.5hr dies in about 30 minutes of riding, i figure that should do at least an hour), and ill add a fuse/breaker, so i should stick to 30 amp? and of course checkout the axle. and those things seemed to have fixed your problem?

I really do appreciate all your help, anything that comes to the kids if its not safe i'm not doing it because ya never know.
#145116
The wiring harness for a hurricane isn't any different than a typical jeep, with that said, I'd still recommend sticking with the 30 amp fuse for a few charge cycles.

People have been known to use threaded rod as an axle, however I expect there could be some irreparable damage to the wheels over time?!?! But for diagnostic purpose with a little driver over short distances, sure would be fine. It would buy you time to source a "same as you have" round bar. Any local fabricator, metal shop, or metal supermarket "should" be able to get you the right thing, if you can't find it for your model at hobbymasters.com or tigerimports.com
Tiger "appears suspect" but I've been notified by a few different people that it's completely safe. Maybe you received the wrong part, I can't say I see it all the time, but I can say that I far too often get brand new products and parts that are defective!
#145344
I know its been a while, but i just got around to getting things moved around.

The F150 i ended up buying a 12v 18AH battery for $30 and sticking it in there with a powerwheels connector attached to it (and a 30 amp breaker). This simple change made the truck run "steady" and didn't blow the breaker at all actually. but with both my kids in it ( about 140 lbs) on flat ground i ran into another issue ( i know the weight limit is 130). one of the motors burnt up, and both were basically hot enough to burn you if you held it. they only rode it for about 3-4 minutes, and i didn't change anything else, its still a 12V battery, wiring didn't get hot or anything else. fortunately one motor seems to still work fine, and i have a replacement on hand for the other.

My question here is, why would that happen in such a short run time? i truly don't get how an extra 10 lbs on a flat surface would do that. (the battery weighs about 5-7 more pounds than original so 15-17 lbs) i have seen people make them 18 volts without this issue. there isn't any binding anywhere and the rear axle is flat(you know, true round).

The dune racer doesn't seem to do this, (granted i didn't pull the motor out and grab it, but they ride it for 10-15 minutes at a time together).

So i'm just slightly confused. I dont mind upgrading the motors, or anything else necessary, i just dont want to aimlessly try things.
#145346
Well unfortunately you have to pull out the axle, but fortunately that provides an opportunity to grease both gearboxes, check that the axle is flat over the length of the bar so you want to lay it on the garage floor or work bench and roll it looking for wobble. The motors do get hot. Kinda crazy hot. I've never measured the temperature, but some rides have no airflow. Most people add PC fans providing fresh air, and some add heat sinks and some fans directly to the motors. Taking a 6v motor to 18v run for 30 minutes I started getting a complaint about the seat hurting, little did I know it was motor heat trapped! Fortunately she was wearing cold fall clothes, but I was shocked to find the gearbox didn't melt!
Also, ya need to make sure the 2 motor screws aren't "too tight", not that there's a torque spec, but not wiggly loose, not güttęntïght, but just right. As well as the "slop" on the axle push-nuts, allowing maybe a 1/4" of axle to protrude past the wheel.
All rough numbers, but you get the point, stuffs designed for and needs play! Have a look at how much a gearbox wiggles when bumped forward then pulled back! It's more than a front wheel drive car engine.....
#145355
i pulled it out, axle is straight. what kind of grease do you recommend for the gearboxes? its the F150 so they have literally no airflow, i will add something for airflow, as well as look for some sort of heat sink. I was absolutely shocked the gearbox didn't melt with what i found, it was a tear down right after it quit working when i found that i was unable to touch it for more than a "feel".

i have left the screws snug, probably 1/4 turn after they stop freely.

I took apart the bad motor, and found a white/silver box between the positive lead and the internals of the motor and when i checked it with a meter it showed as open, i'm not sure as to what that is but if that helps figure out what happened, nothing was warm, wires or anything else except the motors

But i will follow through with replacing the motor and looking for a heatsink and finding a good spot for airflow to open up, if another motor burns out though i would be highly interested in replacing them entirely with an aftermarket set.

do you have any experience with that? i prefer to keep it similar to stock ( a little more speed or torque would only help) and keep the original wiring for now, i see alot of topics about it, and have been reading into it, just wanted another opinion.

Either way i appreciate the help and getting back to me, and like mentioned that aftermarket battery/breaker sure helped alot with the way it runs, they had a blast before the one motor went.
#145359
As for the silver box, I dunno.... I believe everything I have is probably older than your F150, I think those are maybe like 5-10 years newer than what I've been guesstimated in age from sellers, but you know how that goes, no one knew how old this stuff is???
Some new kid trax, like a police car I fixed the other day, does have a circuit board soldered to the motors, but that's all I'm familiar with, but motors (on anything) can and do fail. ESPECIALLY on stuff that belongs to a kid, and used outside, it's fully understandable!

As far as motors go, I plan to stick with the stock motors, until I can go with the "live axle" stuff, be it belt or chain drive. I'd like to have a few "ESC's" from Wesley @ Eastcoastpowerup.com under my belt, after the lovely addition of CJB turbo timers and battery saver boards installed first. Most guys are finding that the stock doesn't perform all that bad compared with most any of the aftermarket motors. There isn't a definitive significant difference, from what I've read.

Air flow, now since I've only done a few fans, based on the limited scrap ones I had laying around, old PC fans, 12V, was I cut out the same size as the blade, with the hole saws I had. I have mine installed on the back side, blowing in, roughly at the motors. These are on jeeps, that see quite a bit of water, and I figured that there is enough gaps and cracks (around gearboxes, the seat, the shifter) for that added air to escape, and it "should" reduce the water from coming in. I was tempted to blow out, but figured that would pull water in, and it is hopefully easier to push out past the cracks than pull air in through muck? Am I right, wrong, I dunno, but that was my theory anyway. The first pair I did was on a mix mash jeep we call her work truck. The fans are wired straight off the motors, so when she runs in reverse, the fans suck in through the gaps, and since she's mostly driving forward they (2 in the back) push air in at the motors. It's worked well as far as I know, this work truck normally runs 12 Volt 28 amp hour, but some times 18V, and seldom 24. But she's beaten the snot out of it, and it keeps going! The 2 batteries are transferred to the back, under the seat, in the "ventilated" motor cavity under her butt, and that poor truck scoots my fat @$$ around, as a driver or on a crumby trailer, or in a 7 cubic yard plastic bin dumping yard trailer. I'm 200 lbs. She's also toted around all kinds of soil bags, retaining wall blocks, you name it. Stock motors are (knock on wood) still going strong, but I have a few spares.

Other guys are blowing 2 fans into the front of the "motor well" and using 2 fans to pull air out, spaced strategically to draw air across the motors. But I haven't bought any, so I spread thin the few I had laying around....

But the motors do run surprisingly hot, for a kids toy. When you compare technology, these aren't sophisticated technically, so there rather inefficient, and that does equate to the creation of heat. Plus the fact that it's scooting along a good 100 lbs of vehicle, kid, and battery, all the while traipsing through the backyard with grass and Bunny holes, it's kind of allowed to be hot. It's fully protected from lil fingers! But yes, expect it to be hot.


The grease.... I've been made aware that "some" greases are incompatible, so you can spread around what's in there, that's not all black and yucky, or you want to thoroughly clean out all that's in the gearbox and use like a white lithium grease. Oil will simply run out and make a big mess.

Check out Eastcoastpowerup, he does have motors, he's a member here, and tries to have tested in the real world components, and tries his best not to offer junk!
Maybe he's a tad higher than what you can find something from somewhere else, but I assure you, that you won't get as good support anywhere else! Bar none. This site was going through changes when I'd attempted to join, and I had emailed him I an effort to figure things out. He has immediate response, and I've read nothing but good reviews. I'd also read he quit supplying his kit due to product coming in the quality had suffered so he changed the kits. But everyone raves about his variable throttle electronic scooter controller (esc) kits. It takes a tremendous load off the motors, and allows for more speed, and far more control. It eliminates the shock load of the on/off switch that is the has pedal now.

And CJB offers a few products as well for a simpler and less expensive ease of charging and providing a boost!

Let me dig up a link for the gearbox, and the turbo timers.....


It was written originally a long time ago, so they weren't sure what was going to change, but you probably have #7 or 7R, which are the same, just thicker plastic gears.

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=103


AND last but not least is probably the best bang for the buck, the interface board and turbo timer thread.... definitely give it a read... and if you order one, let him know that I'm still thinking of him... financial problems on my end have prevented me from my original plans...

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